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I Call Bull.

by Kristin D. 29. December 2009 14:34

Swistle is a well-known and well-liked blogger: a Mom and a delightful writer with a quick sense of humor, who recently decided to "come out" as an overweight woman.  Previously reluctant to post pictures of herself on her website, she spun together some eloquent, heart-pulling words about self-doubt, steriotypes, and being overweight.

I came across the entry via a series of tweets about fighting on the Internet (cause, God, I love a break from my own gong show to peer at another one) , and read the referenced post and subsequent comments with my heart in my throat.  At the end of the 190+ comments, I finally exhaled.  The very sincere post turned into a bit of an angry clawing session, with the comments shifting almost immediately from Swistle's well-written confessional post to the fitness path of  well known blogger and (and personal inspiration and friend to me) Sundry, of Sundry Mourning.

It morphed and grew warts from there: some commenters on the thread mourned that fitness writing is boring and self-centred, other women complained that thin women do not understand that fat is not a choice.  One overexcited commenter told another to "put down the pie plate" and the whole thing got pretty nasty.

This is not the first time I've seen this on the Internet: months ago I wrote a column over at Bodies in Motivation and got slammed by dozens of women for daring to call myself "fatskinny" (since I am thin and do not know what it's like to be fat, etc.)  I received dozens of emails from women who said the same thing: fat can be in the genes and I should be sensitive to this.  Obviously: I was lucky.  I was born with skinny genes.

I call bullshit. 

You know the actresses that boast about how they can eat ten hamburgers and endless hot fudge sundaes and remain wee and toned?  They're full of crap: at least if they're over the age of 25.  And the fat woman who says she works out and eats healthily all the time but her bad genes are to blame for the roll of fat over her jeans?  Equal crap.

Yeah, Heidi Kum loses her pregnancy weight in a freakishly short period of time.  But I would bet my left arm that she worked ridiculously hard and ate very consciously in order to snap back like that.  And for sure: Kate Moss doesn't exercise and she's skinny as hell.  But I bet she's not fit.  And I'd wager she doesn't spend a lot of time eating, either.  Not good.

I'm reluctant to take stands on anything controversial on the Internet because I'd rather take you for a chai latte and an amble through the forest than disagree with you, even quietly but I have to say: on blaming genes for being overweight?  Total crap.

Here's what I believe:

 

1. We're all born with different body shapes, but (barring health issues) there is absolutely no need for any one of us to be hugely overweight.

 

I had a muffin top and a puffy face when I was drinking too much wine and eating too many Doritos.  I have fluctuated from a size 6 to a size 10 in my life and the sole reason I was never a size 20+ is because I have always hiked, ran, snowboarded.  I ate too much sometimes, but I've always tried to keep an eye on my caloric intake.  I was aware that a caeser salad was not a healthy meal.   I may get flack for saying this: but I do not believe you can be very overweight if you are eating balanced, healthy meals and exercising for an hour a day, 6 days a week. Anyone can do this.

My overweight friends and acquaintances all eat more junk food than I do.  They exercise less.  And though, yeah, genetics may dictate a lot of what you look like when you're born, you have the choice and the power to hone that body the way you want it to look and feel (barring a medical condition, which I acknowledge)  Some fit people will be bigger than others because of proportion, height, body type, etc.  But if your waistline is bigger than you'd like, it's almost certainly related to the fact that you're taking in more energy than you're putting out.

 

 

2. Being very fit is a lot of goddamned work.

No one in her right mind would rather thrash around in ugly tights and a sodden shirt for five miles on a rainy Sunday when they could be sitting in front of a roaring fire, eating mini muffins and watching Inglorious Basterds.  If there were no repercussions, god, I'd love to inhale a cheese-infused lasagne and gigantic slab of garlic toast and throw the goddamned cottage cheese and tuna out the window for those bastard cawing crows. 

I want to puke every time my arms shake as I'm lowering my arms in a lateral pull.  I'd rather have someone insert little balls of hamster poop in my ears than do another goddamned assisted pull up.  But I do it because I love feeling lean and strong.  Continually pushing myself to my very limit makes me believe I can do anything.  The potency of that is incredible.

But this is hard work, mindbendingly so some time. I resent when it's insinuated that this is easy for me because I've never been overweight.  It's not.

 

3. Looks are only a very small part of it.

I've been told more than once in recent months that my relatively recent focus on fitness is unflattering.  The insinuation is that I was more interesting when I didn't talk about running, weights, and Jillian Michaels; that I was "deeper" when I wasn't so focused on obtaining the "perfect body."

But god, I know my body will never be perfect.  And looking better in a pair of skinny jeans is only a small benefit of this life shift.  Being fit helps me see everything more clearly, precisely, sharply.

I  do love that I don't feel the need to turn off all the lights before I get into bed with Corey.  And yes, it's an immense relief to not have to contort myself into various hunched self-conscious positions in order to make myself less conspicuous at the swimming pool.  I am no longer persistently tired, and when I do eat some cheesecake on special occasions, it tastes a thousand times more delicious because it's a novelty - I'm not eating it every day. I can scramble up mountain sides and suddenly I feel like I can do anything.  I'm believing more in my own power -- now that I've bettered myself, how can I better contribute to the world around me?  What can I do next?

It radiates in a million unexpected ways.

 

4. It's harder to get started than to stay on target.

Excuses are easy.  There's always next week, and right now this caramel fudge looks so delicious, and I'm not feeling it right now and I like saganaki more than squats.  There will always be a million exercises for not getting started, but I can vouch for the fact that once you're on the path, once you're committed...it gets so much easier.  Workouts become a fibre of daily life, much like morning coffee or brushing your teeth.  It's so much easier to stay on track than to get on track.  If you do want to do it, the first 30 days are the hardest.  It won't ever be easy, because nothing worth anything is, but it will be easier and fully, totally worth it.

 

5. You do have time.  Fit people are no less busy than people who are not.

I hear lack of time and lack of money as the two biggest obstacles to getting in shape.  I don't believe either. 

You can get up at 5 AM instead of 5:30 to do a workout video and it will cost you next to nothing.  Eating healthily requires some planning, but it's no more expensive than subsisting on nachos, white chocolate macadamia nut cookies and and coffee. This I know firsthand.  If you take a lot of business trips and have to stay in hotels, there are often free gyms.  You can download exercises online.  You can run, walk, and hike for next to nothing.  If you're not exercising, it's because you haven't mustered the will, and barring an illness, it's most certainly not because you can't.

I think making excuses are easier than staggering through the snow with a raspy heart and a searing side stitch.  Eating four brownies and swilling a few Heinekin is a lot easier than planning an egg white omelette that has balanced protein and carbs.  But in the end, I believe, the easy way isn't the most satisfying.  

Being the strongest, fittest, most capable me involves a lot of grunting, whinging, and sacrificing.  And it's totally worth it and you can do it too.  Genes don't matter.  Your attitude does.

 

 

Comments

12/29/2009 1:41:56 PM #

I followed the comments over at Swistle's blog and initially found it hilarious that the topic took such a turn. I couldn't believe that someone would find Sundry's fitness writing and accomplishments anything less than inspirational, so it was easy to write those commenters off as aberrations. It only really hit me a few hours later that they were serious, that there were more than a couple of them who felt that way, and that it wasn't funny at all. It hurt. As someone who has turned her own life upside down in the service of fitness (and health, happiness, confidence, accomplishment, drive, pride...), I was horrified to encounter the sort of people who resent these choices we've made.

I wish I could help you explain the huge, radiating shift that you describe, and the work it takes, and the million things that make it worthwhile, but I know that there are people who won't get it (or don't want to get it). I just wanted to thank you for posting this, for defending us and trying to explain the how and the why of it all, even though it's probably futile. I already get to live the benefits of this lifestyle every day, but it definitely adds fuel to my fire to be reminded of the strength of our community.  

Erica

12/29/2009 2:08:21 PM #

As someone who gets up five mornings a week at 5 am to run/workout, I'm with you Kristin. It's hard, but the results are worth it. There are days when I feel that staying in bed and cuddling with my husband will do me more good. Then I think about how my day and attitude will be if I don't get out there. I'm tired of being called crazy for taking care of myself. I'm tired of people feeling so insecure about their own lack of interest in their future/fitness that they need to call me down. I'm happy to find like-minded people on these here interwebs.

Also? I love that my daughter sees the efforts my husband (an avid cyclist) and I make to have fun while taking care of our bodies. She knows that part of the reason we exercise and take nutrition seriously is so that we can keep up with her for a good long time.

kabes

12/29/2009 2:25:46 PM #

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12/29/2009 2:38:20 PM #

This was the RIGHT POST at the RIGHT TIME. I think this post is DEAD ON!

I am 20 pounds heavier right now because I stopped getting up so early and because I am eating massive amounts of crap. I know this because I am a professional yo-yo dieter.  Kidding!  Although it mostly feels like it. Personally, I like to read fitness centered blogs so I don't think you should worry to much about the nay-sayers.

Smile

JenniferG of Hip As I Wanna Be

12/29/2009 2:40:51 PM #

I started following you the first time I read you describe yourself as "fatskinny".  I'm fatskinny.  I'm the fattest skinny person I know.  And tho I am a size 2 I am not fit.  I am not healthy.  I don't eat well and I don't move around much and therefore I usually don't feel well.  I have all the excuses that overweight people have plus a new one - no one will ever SEE that I'm not healthy so why bother - where are the Cheetos?  Anyway, you're gonna get some slack for this probably but I do agree with you.  And you and Sundry are inspiring me to change this about myself.  So, thanks.

Mama Ritchie

12/29/2009 2:42:16 PM #

You are a great motivator. I fell off the workout wagon, I got frustrated exercising around hotwheels and little hands that liked to jut under me mid-jumping jack. I better suck it up and get back. This baby weight isn't going to lose itself.

Beth

12/29/2009 2:43:35 PM #

Thanks for writing this. I have no idea how so many people have come to believe that "anyone can do it" is politically incorrect instead of empowering.

Sundry

12/29/2009 2:50:30 PM #

I'm glad you write about fitness and eating well and frankly I don't find it boring at all.  If anything it's motivational.  It's interesting following your personal journey and looking forward to more in 2010

Frank

12/29/2009 2:56:35 PM #

I don't think it's politically incorrect. I do think it's empowering. And now that I have a more specific forum to explain where I was coming from, I will attempt to do so: I also know that for some people, being hugely overweight is akin to being anorexic. Like, WAY more than I ever would have guessed. It's not just about changing habits or a lifestyle -- it's a pile of emotional issues and a form of addiction, and to say that these steps will work for them is like telling my anorexic mother-in-law to just go eat a goddamn PIZZA and get OVER HERSELF.

For a lot of people (and by no means everyone in that comment thread because I don't even think people knew what they were SAYING at that point) it's an eating disorder of epic proportions, and there are an ASSLOAD of underlying emotional issues that have to be addressed as to WHY they are overweight and WHY they overeat and ... so many things. Truly, it's not unlike anorexia. That's mostly where my comments came from. I did a five-part series on Overeaters Anonymous and ... shit, I can't remember the name of the other group I followed, but it was similar ... when I was a newspaper editor, and it was super eye-opening for me. I spent two months following a group of thirty people, and I had never seen anything like it in my life, and I'll be honest, my attitude going in was pretty derisive. But after going to meetings and, in some cases, THERAPY with them, I changed my tune completely. It was ... incredible, on so many levels.

Yes, they did it -- well, the people I met with, anyway. But the process they had to go through was not unlike the treatment of other people with severe eating disorders. I know it seems like an extreme example -- and maybe it is -- but for me, it really colored my viewpoint on people who are extremely overweight, and it made me realize that the "You Can Do It!" attitude works mostly for people who are moderately overweight who are motivated and simply lazy (holla!). But for a large part of the VERY overweight population, it's so much more than that. And that's a position that I, as a moderately overweight person who can eat whatever she wants and not gain more than 40 pounds over the ideal (thank you genetics, and yes, I think they help my body type in this case), cannot really understand, and to be fair, I don't think many of you can, either.

jonniker

12/29/2009 2:57:21 PM #

Oh god I'm totally conflicted. (bites knuckle)

I love cottage cheese. I love nazi-scalpers. (bites knuckle again)

I'd never read Swistle before all this. I liked her post. I liked some of the comments, grimaced at some. But the thing that I kept coming back to in my head is that it's mathematics. If you're happy with how you are - and/or if your priorities don't include fitness or losing weight - cool. But if you're not happy with how you are, you have to eat less (and eat better) and move more. (said gently, and with respect.) I do believe we all begin from varying points on the spectrum, with varying inherited advantages or disadvantages. But the mathematics stand. God. I hate math.

What's important to get across is that an acknowledgement of the truth of the mathematics isn't some kind of condemnation. I eat right, but my ass is crocheted to the couch, and do I'm a flabby, wheezing mess under my clothes. Right now, that's the cost of the deadlines I need to meet. So I nod at the mathematics, and shrug. For now. Lots of people do. You've got to be ready to change for your own reasons and on your own terms. Or happy with yourself for your own reasons and on your own terms.

The whole "Sundry's blog is so fitnessy and shallow and YAWN" was just lame. That's like someone saying "Christ, that sweetsalty chick was alright until her kid died, but then YIKES. I wish she'd write about sleep-training again." We write about what's going on in our lives. We write about the experiences that make us feel alive and vigorous and loving and dreamy and crippled. I like watching people transform. I like witnessing people discover new dimensions of themselves, new strengths. Some people choose to transform. Others are forced to. It's all what makes us human, and authentic, and interesting.

What would be awesome would be cottage cheese and Tarantino AT THE SAME TIME.

sweetsalty kate

12/29/2009 2:58:04 PM #

Um, yeah, totally agree. I also think that the online world gives people space to be defensive arseholes. It's hard to know you eat like crap, need to exercise more and just generally need to change your lifestyle. On blogs and whatnot, there's an easy way to take it out on others. Total BS, of course. I like the points you made and need to go learn more about this fatskinny business.

Kelly

12/29/2009 2:59:11 PM #

Thanks for writing this. I am always so irritated when I hear celebrities downplaying how much they work out or how little they must eat in order to keep their bodies fit. I just want someone in the public eye to proclaim "I work hard at this, dammit!". And you just did, so thank you.

Mimi

12/29/2009 3:00:07 PM #

Man, judgemental much?

Anon

12/29/2009 3:01:02 PM #

Kristin, I read your post at Bodies in Motivation and totally agreed with that and everything you are saying here.

I'm a size 10 right now but have been a size 2 and while I was dieting I always thought that smaller was better, being thinner would make me happier. However, being that size two was not the be all and end all and while yes, I was leaner, I wasn't stronger and I didn't feel better than I have at other times. I completely agree that fitness is about the feeling you get from it and not about the way you look - the aesthetic aspect is icing on the cake (healthy cake! made with canola oil and egg whites!)

As you can relate to, I am a 10-15 pounds heavier than my ideal and would like to drop a size or two but even if I eat more cookies than I should and choose pizza instead of salad, I do work out to keep my weight in check and I have a sense of boundary. I've recently been feeling heavier than I am comfortable with so I know what to do: eat less, work out more.

It's a simple formula and while genes might make it harder for some people to lose weight (wouldn't we all like a speed-of-light metabolism?) but it IS possible! You just have to WANT to and not everyone does and that's a-ok.

Thanks for such an inspirational post.

Maris

12/29/2009 3:02:26 PM #

Amen!

Sharon

12/29/2009 3:03:20 PM #

Jonniker, as an actual, no-shit alcoholic I would tell ANYONE they can stop drinking. It is within their power. It may not be easy, but by god they can do it. I see no difference between that and the example you're using.

Sundry

12/29/2009 3:07:24 PM #

Social comments and analytics for this post

This post was mentioned on Twitter by Lucky_Kristin: I'm usually a quiet fence sitter, but in this case I can't help it, I call bullshit: http://bit.ly/7FiQ7R

uberVU - social comments

12/29/2009 3:07:33 PM #

Well stated.

Amanda

12/29/2009 3:09:17 PM #

Oh, and the money thing I brought up: in OA, there was a young mom on food stamps and working three jobs to make ends meet, and yes, it was a GIGUNDO challenge for her to feed healthy food to her family. Healthy food IS more expensive than unhealthy food, and it took her sponsor to get her on WIC and pro-bono meetings with a nutritionist to help her work it out, and even then, she was forced to say fuck it, it's McDonald's tonight, because I can feed the whole family on $14, and that's all I have time for.

I know, I know I'm giving extreme examples, and not likely the ones we probably encountered online, but who knows? All I know is it made me think about my own situation and how harshly I judged before, and how really and truly simple it is for someone like me, and how complex it is for someone who has circumstances completely different from mine. That's where a lot of my responses came from.

jonniker

12/29/2009 3:14:40 PM #

Yeah, but Sundry, what worked for you might not work for everyone. You did it cold turkey. Some people need meetings and support and help. Everyone is different, and not all people react the same way to the same things. Beating alcoholism is simple: stop drinking. But for some people, it isn't remotely that simple. Talk therapy works for some people, meetings work for others, some people are all I NEED TO GET TO THE HEART OF THIS SHIT AND EXAMINE MAHSELF.

I don't assume that because something worked for ME that someone else doesn't need something ELSE and that because it was simple for me that it's going to be simple for them. Everyone is different.

I'm telling you, it was some crazy fucking shit. And yes, of course anyone can do it and OF COURSE that message works and is necessary. But boiling it down to a simple lifestyle change is where I think the message is oversimplified.

jonniker

12/29/2009 3:16:30 PM #

To the ever-eloquent anonymous: I'm sincere when I say this. Tell us why this post struck you as judgemental. At Swistle's original post, plenty of people articulated countering thoughts in interesting ways that helped everyone to broaden their perspective. So be specific. Let us know where you stand and why.

Otherwise, you're just a dog with your head out the door window of a passing car. BARK! BARK! (slobber) (VROOOM.)

sweetsalty kate

12/29/2009 3:17:16 PM #

Agree 100%.  I will never have a "perfect" body but I work HARD to stay in shape, and I am careful about what I eat.  When I didn't and I wasn't, I weighed 20 pounds more.  

Cate

12/29/2009 3:17:57 PM #

Bravo! Kristin! Bravo!

shelley

12/29/2009 3:18:24 PM #

In response, I will just point back upstream to Kate's comment. What SHE said: "What's important to get across is that an acknowledgement of the truth of the mathematics isn't some kind of condemnation." It's also not a suggestion that there's only One Path to Success. Simply that it CAN be done, and it does no one any favors to keep harping on how it is probably IMPOSSIBLE for any number of theoretical outlier situations.

Sundry

12/29/2009 3:19:10 PM #

I'm the person who made the pie plate comment.  I regret it enormously because, well, for the obvious reason that it was really a stupid knee jerk thing to say, but also because Rachel - the person I'd directed it to -  suddenly became identified as a victim even though she'd initiated an ad hominem attack out of the blue against Linda.  

Suddenly I was being called every name short of the Antichrist by numerous (though not all) people in that thread. Though I deserved some backlash, I was also amazed by the rabidity. It seemed over the top.  

Even more unfortunate is that it detracted from reasoned - and I would have thought helpful - statements about fitness, exercise, and weight loss, but of course these all got trashed because of that one stupid comment I made.  But again, not by everybody, including Linda who I thought was quite charitable.

The rage has now grown to the point where one person is calling me a spammer, which is just...wow, a total vicious lie. I can't defend myself of course.  It's the Internet. But what's most ironic is that even if I offered an apology, these people have themselves surpassed my mistake by indulging in slander.    

Whatever makes them feel better, I guess.

My friend - a coworker, actually - who helped me get a grip on my own fitness, health, weight loss, etc. gave me some advice awhile ago because she runs into this constantly.  People will believe what they want to believe; truths, facts, and science be damned.  

In the fat/skinny thread you offended people merely for posting photos showing your progress.  You were reasonable and nice, just sharing your story, and got crucified for it.  I was amazed at the vitriol (coming from people who claimed they were well adjusted and happy being large or overweight). It smacked of petty jealousy to me.

But I also sort of understood the origin, as there's a lot of misinformation about losing weight and an incredible amount of pressure on people who try programs that fail them.  

Anyway, I'm in NO position to call a kettle black, since I'm right now the naughty pot, but I do think the thread was dishonest in that it was more assumptive.  

I'm just sad that someone (Linda) I genuinely respect, might now think I'm a horrible person for that one comment.  I've been reading Linda for years and have never spammed and have been 99.9% supportive. I hope that can continue.  But if not, thems the breaks I guess.

Anyway, all this to say, I GET where you come from and appreciate how much work you do and how big the changes are for you.  And I think you have a right to talk about those changes in any way you want.  

If being slender and wanting to become an athlete has become a crime against female humanity, well...fuck we are DOOMED.  And probably better off hanging around men who don't do this shit to each other (as far as I can tell).

Lesley

12/29/2009 3:20:40 PM #

So, I want to respond individually to these comments but I want to think about all of them first because, god, this is a minefield.  I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.  I want everyone to know they CAN do this.  

And I did not write this post to rankle: I could sit quietly and bite my lip and listen quietly to conversations on other blogs but -- I'm a blogger!  And I write about fitness.  And so I thought this an appropriate forum.

So I'm going to think about what I want to say, to you in particular Jonniker, I dig you and respect your viewpoints.

For now though, Kate, my GOD.  You said it.  Perfectly. Thank you.

Kristin

12/29/2009 3:24:04 PM #

Overall, I think this is a good article.  I've lost 115 pounds, so I know it can be done.  Of course there are medical/genetic/whatever exceptions but I tend to think they're uncommon.

One thing I disagree with, though, is that "genes don't matter."  They do.  I don't think most of us are justified in saying that "I can't lose weight because of my genes," but the truth is that some people have an easier time with it than others.  I don't know if that's because the genes lead us to different foods, if they make it easier to gain, if they've provided some of us with different muscle composition, or what, but I'm sure they make a difference in how easy it is.

Another point I'd like to mention is that once you've been overweight your body is constantly trying to get back to that weight, partially because fat cells are created when you gain weight, but they don't disappear when you lose it.  Maintenance at a healthy weight is much harder for people who have had to lose it first.  Believe me, I'm not trying to belittle your efforts...you obviously work your ass off (literally) and I totally respect that.  But I have all the fat cells from those 115 pounds just sitting around in my body, craving to be full again.  Any extra calories I eat?  BAM, straight to those fat cells.  Any missed workouts?  BAM, straight to those fat cells.

I think that's the hardest part about this.  Is that an excuse?  Yes and no.  Yes, it's an excuse for why I gain more quickly than some.  But no, it's not a very good excuse for me to let myself go.  For me, that has more to do with my food addiction than anything else.

Bill

12/29/2009 3:25:07 PM #

I agree with mathematics, but I disagree that there is only one path to success, when we all know it's Wii Hula Hooping and DO NOT TRY TO TELL ME OTHERWISE.

Anyway, no, I don't think it's a condemnation, nope, nossirree. But what I was saying is that too often -- and even in Kristin's examples -- the message is oversimplified and that there ARE a lot of underlying issues that need to be addressed way beyond just the mathematics.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to weep bitterly into my bowl of grapes and pretend that they are ICE CREAM GRAPES.

jonniker

12/29/2009 3:29:38 PM #

I think the problem with making the message complicated enough to cover every single possibility and situation is that it becomes overwhelming and impossible. For those who want to be ready someday, people need to hear they CAN do it, and that the basics for doing so are thusly: eat less, move more. The details are a choice, the baseline formula is a must.

Sundry

12/29/2009 3:30:39 PM #

Except for your own experience, you have no idea what you are talking about.  Your proclamations about what you believe to be true are just as hyperbolic, oversimplified and untrue as the "genetics makes me fat" argument you attack, and you reveal a hell of a lot of bias, too.  

Deb

12/29/2009 3:39:14 PM #

OH ALSO! One thing that was fucking FASCINATING about the OA situation was that while yes, many people have dealt with addiction, VERY few of us have to deal with an addiction that we quite literally cannot quit. (I don't know why I'm going on about this except that literally, it was one of the craziest experiences of my effing LIFE)

These people -- well, some of them, but not remotely all -- were addicted to food. Some of them ridiculously so -- years later, I am still trying to purge the memory of a man who ate anything and everything, including cans of stewed tomatoes, which he'd hidden in the bookcase in his bedroom, and that wasn't even the most extreme example.

I can't imagine being addicted to alcohol and then being forced to have four drinks a day to survive. Or for me, cigarettes. The way they had to eat -- excuse me, HAVE to eat -- for the rest of their lives is incredible, and they are incredibly strong.

I know, I'm getting all hyper-focused on this, but it was RIVETING. I wish you all could have been with me. I can't do the whole thing justice, and I'm afraid the more I go on about this, the more I sound like I'm presenting people out of a reverse Dickens novel who are not really real, but I swear, they are. And honestly, not all of them were that far gone/unrealistic-sounding.

jonniker

12/29/2009 3:39:50 PM #

Bill - thank you for your comment and perspective and I agree with all of your points and hadn't considered some of them.  I appreciate you offering your perspective civilly.

And Deb - I love your writing and I am sorry if I offended you.  I know there are exceptions to every single rule in life.  But I still believe that in MOST cases, being overweight is the result of eating too much and exercising too little, and that sometimes it's easier to make excuses than get out there and make changes.  It was in my experience, anyway.

Kristin

12/29/2009 3:40:27 PM #

Yes - THAT.  Migod, thanks to you and Sundry, I've been inspired to train for a half-marathon.  However, prior to doing so, I've been struggling with weight issues that wrecked havoc on my health (jesus, there have been more than a couple of times when I've been asked when I was due - I don't have children nor was I ever pregnant).  I'm surprised that there are actually commenters who would condemn any efforts to regain my health via exercise. I respect women of all sizes and I, from being loyal reader of your blog and Sundry's, am just astounded that anyone would criticize the path you two have taken.  Working out can be a wonderful experience, but man, it took me years to get to a point where I was able to say, this feels awesome!  I'm never going to be a size 0, nor am I never going to be a size 10 (my most "healthiest" size is a 12, believe it or not, folks), but I'm going to make my damn best to be the healthiest I can be.  And at a size 12.  

Jenna

12/29/2009 3:42:44 PM #

Now I can't stop thinking about this.  Smile

I also wanted to mention that while the majority of us may have it in us PHYSICALLY to lose the weight, mentally is something completely different.  I've lost major amounts of weight 3 times - 90 pounds, 115 pounds, and 50 pounds - each time getting to goal.  Obviously I can do it physically, but mentally...that's something a lot more difficult.  For me, I actually disagree with point #4.  Getting started is easy.  Maintaining for the long term is hard.

I feel like it's something you can't understand if you haven't been there...just like I can't understand an alcoholic's struggles.  And like Deb points out, all anyone can talk about is their own experience.  Unless they're a doctor, which I'm not.

Okay, now I'm moving along.  I have to run tomorrow.  ;)

Bill

12/29/2009 3:48:45 PM #

Sundry: That was my point. That message doesn't work for everybody, and it shouldn't. Yes, people who need to hear "You *can* do it!" will be inspired by it, but some people will sigh and say, oh HA HA easy for YOU to say, as we witnessed first-hand.

jonniker

12/29/2009 3:48:58 PM #

I don't think you can just bar health issues, or biology of genetics.  I agree that getting fit is hard and losing weight is hard and for some it is SUPER SUPER hard.  I read all the comments over at Swistles, it was quite the discussion.  From fat people are fat by choice only to fitness can be a hobby, passion, distraction or obsession.  The results look very different though. I was one of the people who was a little shocked by the fatskinny thing.  It it one hing to be thin and not FIT. it is another completely different challenge to lose weight and get fit.  I have watched The Biggest Loser where they make obese people eat 1200 calories a day and workout for 4 hours.  It is inhumane and not safe.  Pounding a 300 pound body on a treadmill is a shortcut to injury or permanent damage.  What the hell is my point here?  It is different for everyone, difficult for everyone and more difficult for some than others.  

I also have to say that looks are a HUGE part of it.  HUGE.  YOU already looked amazing, but you now look even better and FEEL better, which is fantastic.  I think it would be naive to think that the 30 day shred trend or any focused weight loss regime is not largely based in looking better.  My wish and hope is for feeling better,  but based on what I have been reading, seeing, looking better (for many people) is the biggest motivator.

I have anecdotal, personal experience about exercise, weight loss, health problems, MENTAL health issues, but I am not sure it will say anymore than I have said which is I wish we(I) could love our own bodies, accept other people's body shapes and choices and honestly, be healthy enough to my kid have kids.  

xo

jenB

12/29/2009 3:51:28 PM #

I like you, Bill.

jonniker

12/29/2009 3:52:38 PM #

I read Swistle's post and stood back instead of stepping in to say my piece because, well, by the time I got to it anything I said would have been lost in the mess.

Disclaimer: I consider Kristin and Sundry to be friends. They are who I spend my time with at BlogHer and yes, I may be biased because of that, but I also spend my time with them because they don't do bullshit.

I was around for the "fat skinny" debacle of Kristin's over at Bodies and even wrote a post in response to it. Because "skinny" people have fat days too.

I agree with most of what was said above, including sweetsalty & jonniker's comments. I just want to put in my two cents.

People who are bigger often pull the "genetics" card. And you know what? It's totally valid. Because of my inherited geneitcs, I spent the first 24 years of my life as a "big girl." My friends could eat McDonald's and candy and be stick thin but I could not. In my early twenties I cut out junk food and tried running but still had thighs that rubbed together and wore a size 14.

It wasn't until I met with a dietitian and learned that more veggies, less starches and some hard core cardio would get me fit did I actually, well, get fit.

As it is now, I work out six-7 days a week, watch what I eat pretty strictly, and am still not a toothpick. I am fit, I am strong, but I am not build to be skinny.

So, I agree with the genetics argument, but I also know that it's up to you to decide what you want to do with the cards that you're dealt. My metabolism is slow by nature and I hated being unfit. I work hard to be where I am and hate that people give me grief when I pass on dessert.

This is not a reflection on anyone other than ME. This is what I choose for MYSELF, and I just want to make that clear.

I also want to state that what Kristin wrote agrees with what I have lived through. Everyone had different genetic dispositions, yes, but don't pull the "genetics" card as a cop-out. Just say that you're happy, or aren't ready to commit to a lifetime of fitness, or whatnot.

Don't project your unhappiness with your own body onto those of us who are literally sweating it out to make our own bodies the best they can be.

Angella

12/29/2009 3:56:38 PM #

Hi!

New here. The shredheads on Twitter pointed me over and I wanted to say that I totally get what you're saying. And I totally get where people are saying that there's more than one way to skin a cat, peel an apple, or achieve a goal.

The thing is, ultimately, we can only speak to our own experience. So all the people who are freaking the heck out or calling bias or saying that you're attacking or using hyperbole or oversimplifying should really write their own posts about their own experiences and accept that your experience is different.

Beth

12/29/2009 3:57:44 PM #

Angella: I just want to say that not everyone who argues against this stuff is jealous or dissatisfied with their own bodies. That was one of the themes that really upset me on Swistle's comments. It is not always sour grapes, and I REALLY get upset when it's assumed that's what it is.

I cannot believe I'm still talking about this. THREE DAYS OF MY LIFE GONE POOF. You want to talk addiction? Clearly I have one.

jonniker

12/29/2009 3:59:48 PM #

There is another pretty well known and lovely blogger who has posted a great deal about her struggle to lose weight in spite of her Hashimoto's (?) disease, a disease that makes it almost impossible for her to budge the pounds.   By god, it seems like she's working her ass off, and she's at the gym probably as much as you are, and yet she cannot shift the weight.   While I partially agree with what you've said, I have to take offense on the part of people like her who are working like crazy and have to fight against medical conditions that make it nearly impossible to change their metabolism.    There is also another entire subset of people who are forced by disease to take steroids regularly which cause them to retain massive amounts of fluid making them appear "fat" against all their best efforts.  Let's not discount abject poverty (in America, you can feed a family of five for five dollars at a fast food joint and would not be able to purchase enough vegetables for that same amount to feed them all) (highly recommend the documentary Food, etc., for more on that).  

And there are any number of thyroid conditions and other diseases that make it virtually impossible for a person to lose weight.

This post -- while I appreciate the spirit in which it was posted -- would make me cry if I were one of those people.  

Karen

12/29/2009 4:05:58 PM #

Kristin very specifically mentioned that she acknowledges health issues and does not discount them. I can't figure why people are hyper-focused on that particular point when the truth is, these sorts of weight-affecting health conditions do not affect the vast majority of folks.

As for the health issue in general, it can be even more of a reason to work hard to change your body. My uncle was morbidly obese for his entire life before losing a leg, and eventually his life, to diabetes. I wish like hell he would have taken a message to heart that he could have changed his destiny.

Sundry

12/29/2009 4:08:06 PM #

Jonniker: I totally agree with that. I just wanted to make the pre-emptive strike because I KNOW it always goes bad. I wanted to stop it before it started, because I've seen it go bad, too.

Karen - Kristin's point 1 stated (barring health issues), which I took to include all sorts of diseases, including Hashimotos. The blogger you are referring to is a friend of mine and I'm sure she would not take offense to this. She's also a friend of Kristin's, so...

Regardless of friendship, I thought that disclaimer was pretty evident. Smile

Angella

12/29/2009 4:09:46 PM #

Jonniker, I love your passion.  Love.  And I do understand your points about oversimplification.  This topic could fill a 500 page novel, and you have some good points that I'm rolling around in my head.

And Karen, I tried to be careful to note that NOTHING I wrote is applicable to those experiencing medical conditions of any kind. And abject poverty: OK.  Produce in my part of North America is not expensive at all, and if you're too poor to afford to make salads and steamed veggies, that's a devastatingly sad and totally valid excuse.

Kristin

12/29/2009 4:10:12 PM #

Sorry, I really didn't want to comment again, but Angella, a size 14 is the average size of a North American woman.  I just want to point out that one person's "big girl" is another person's "i would kill to be a size 14".  Also, the genetics card is not a cop out for a lot of people.  I think it is easier to judge and say people just aren't ready or they are lazy or cannot commit or make a change.  It is not that easy.  I think the biological, emotional and yes, genetic issues are perhaps dismissed. Don't project your fitness, small size, and miles you run with our difficulties to do the same.  Some of us still sweat, commit, eat better, but have other barriers you may not even know about.  Let us be gentler.  I admire all of you, including myself, who are active and doing what feels right for ourselves.  

Lest those without pie plates cast the first stone?  Rather not cast one at all.

jenB

12/29/2009 4:12:34 PM #

I don't have any amazing truth to reveal here but I do have to say, from my own personal standpoint, other factors can be at play.  In the past 12 months, I went from working out most days a week (always have, always will) to deciding to tackle marathons (did 4 in 12 months and plan to try and qualify for Boston next year), open water swimming and triathlons (did 2 longer length sprints and will be adding an Olympic triathlon this coming year).  And through this past 12 months? I gained weight (was already 20 pounds overweight to begin with), starved myself to lose 20 pounds, hired a trainer, started therapy and am now also under the care of a nutritionist with a specialty in eating disorders who has me on a careful eating plan.  And no, none of this is on my blog.  But I have to say- it works different for everyone.  I have 3 kids and am a full time partner in a law firm.  I get "busy" but I manage to workout 7 days a week most weeks.  And I broke down in tears to my trainer at the gym this afternoon because, under all this care, eating as I'm told to eat, I'm gaining weight.  So, I am doing EVERYTHING that I can (and 10x more than most people) and I'm still overweight and, at the moment, it's getting worse.  Reading this post and being told that my being overweight is because I'm lying to myself, not eating right and not working out enough was probably the last thing I needed to read.  

Chris

12/29/2009 4:14:09 PM #

I'm going to be all cheesy and serendipitous when I say that thank you to my friend AngelaD, I found you and this post because I literally began writing a similar story without having read anything from Swistle (though I do read her often.) Your post is so honest, as someone who works hard to keep an image they strive for. I can respect this so very much. I work hard, but I've been failing, and I'm wanting back on that horse. I over-analyze my food, calories, exercise and end up failing myself at the end of the day, most literally. (Cough whiskey cough)

It IS hard. I'm the fat-skinny girl. I'm working but not enough and it shows. It's an honesty on this very subject that I think some of us need to hear because : GASP : it's truly attainable if you work at it? Maybe I'll work at it.

Thank you.

Mrs. Flinger

12/29/2009 4:15:10 PM #

However, I can not apparently write or type. Excuse the run-on sentences with poor grammar.

Mrs. Flinger

12/29/2009 4:15:43 PM #

I wrote a series of posts several months ago - "Cheap Calories and Couch Potatoes" - and it earned me a great deal of similar criticism: How can someone like me understand what it's like for people who are overweight and/or poor?  So much for hoping I might issue a wake-up call or two.

For me, it's been a slow (and emotionally healthy) transition from "what does my body look like" to "what can my body do."  I can lament my Spanish-stucco stomach, or I can focus on how tightening my abs improves my crawl stroke.  Looking good is icing.

What bothers me are the excuses (and I've made plenty of them in the past myself).  It makes me happy to see overweight gym-goers giving it their all; I have far more respect for them than the fatskinny girls who spend five minutes on the stair climber and call it a day.  During triathlons, I've been passed by Athenas, and I've done my share of passing girls in their twenties.  Setting these athletic goals for myself - and training hard to achieve them - is empowering in a way I'd never known before.

Julie @ The Mom Slant

12/29/2009 4:15:45 PM #

Oh christ I'm useless. I agree with everybody. I'm only commenting again to reveal to the whole world my passionate affair with JenB. One of these days, even she's going to find out about it.

sweetsalty kate

12/29/2009 4:25:34 PM #

Damn but if this isn't an interesting subject. Your commenters are, for the most part, pretty great - the back and forth is really fascinating.

I agree with Jonniker - there's a whole lot of dysfunction going on. Our whole culture is unhealthy about food and body image, and to try and be healthy and strong is a lot harder than trying to just be skinny. (Ok, Captain Obvious, tell us something we don't know).

I love food too much and I don't know how to get over it even though I am fat. I was in a Middle Eastern market today and I was just woozy from all of the beautiful food around me. I find it more intoxicating than anything else on earth. If you said "You can have an orgasm or this really good new kind of cookie," I would be like "Hand me the cookie - I can have an orgasm tomorrow. Oh, hell, hand me three. I can have an orgasm this weekend."

I also don't know how to get over my rebellious streak that rises up with the fury of a thousand hellhounds whenever anyone dares to try and tell me how or what to eat. You think I should eat cottage cheese and pumpkin puree? FUCK YOU, SKINNY BITCH. I'LL BE AT THE PIZZA PARLOR. (That is, of course, a metaphoric fuck you. I think you rock. But your cottage cheese makes me want to storm your dietetic castle armed with a 50 lb brick of flaming molten cheese and a trebuchet).

And then there's the subject of how to enjoy exercise. I HATE to sweat and breathe hard just for exercise. It feels icky. I'd rather have some serious dental work. How does one overcome that? I'm serious. If I could figure that out, it would be great.

And of course there are other issues. But isn't that enough for now.

Suebob

12/29/2009 4:26:00 PM #

Jen - I wasn't casting stones. But the "average North American woman" isn't a good gauge. Especially with the state of obesity in the US of A. The average is skewed by the vast amounts of food that people consume, especially south of the border. Not making this up - have you seen "Super Size Me"?

I thought I was clear that I was NOT JUDGING. Like I said, this is about ME. Narcissism and all of that. I was just trying to chime in as one who is not built to be a size 2 whilst eating junk food.

My size 14 is when I thought I was eating "healthy." Low fat, yes, but high starch and carbs because pasta/rice dishes are easy when you're single.

I have a sister who is built exactly like me, doesn't eat like I do or work out, and stands at a good 240 pounds. I KNOW my genetics, girl. I also applaud my sister for being happy where she's at.

I'm just saying that I also know that it takes me a good 30-60 minutes PER DAY of exercise and REALLY watching what I eat to keep me at a fit (Not SKINNY) weight. I have the "heavy" genetics. I was not happy with them and chose to make changes.

I in no way WHATSOEVER judge those who are bigger than me. Or those who are smaller than me.

I'm just saying that I've chosen to make these changes for MYSELF.

I'm sorry that you took this as an attack. I was just sharing my story as someone from the "bigger" genetics pool who chose for *herself* to commit to a (sometimes) crazy regime. Because I LIKE IT. And I love how strong I am.

Love to you.

Angella

12/29/2009 4:27:19 PM #

I am overwhelmed and need to stretch out to watch a movie on the couch where I will be touching Corey's manbeefpillows and not eating popcorn.

I'll jump in when my thoughts are less jumbly and likely to offend people but in the interim Kate I wanted you to know that I am also having a torrid affair with JenB and so she has some splainin to do.  (Thank you for your civil disagreement, JenB, I've put it in my brain cellar for processing)

Kristin

12/29/2009 4:27:46 PM #

OK, that's fair, I missed the "barring health issues" disclaimer when I read it the first time.  

Karen

12/29/2009 4:35:03 PM #

Thank you Kristin.

I lost 65 pounds in highschool - through hard work.  That's all.  

I just had a baby, and have felt kind of resentful, lately, about all the 'how lucky' comments I get now that I have lost the weight 2.5 months pospartum.  

It's not because I'm lucky.  I worked hard to lose the 30 pounds I gained during my second pregnancy in less than two years.  If I ate like I wanted to I would still be 175 pounds like I was in highschool.  

Both of my parents are overweight.  I have given birth to two children in less than two years, and I gained 30 pounds with each pregnancy.  I work 25 hours per week.  I don't have childcare, or babysitters, or money to go to a gym with childcare.  On top of it all - I broke my tailbone during childbirth.

I worked hard to lose that weight, and did it by exercising and eating a sensible, balanced diet.  Please don't call me 'lucky'.  That takes away the energy and stamina and determination I put into every cold, snowy run or every night I force myself out on the pavement when I really want to fall on the couch, eat macaroni and cheese, and watch cheap reality television.  I don't believe for one second it is because of my genes - I think it is because of my hard work.  If it was my genes, then how come most of the women in my family are obese?

I also don't think any of this makes me shallow.  I don't know Sundry, but she doesn't seem shallow at all to me either.  I love the way I feel when I can run farther and faster.  I love spinning my daughter around the living room or going hiking with a 12 pound baby strapped to my chest.  I love feeling active, and strong - not lethargic and weak.  I love that I can give myself a challenge and meet it.  

Anyway, that's all, I guess.  Thanks again, Kristin for saying it so well.  



Katherine

12/29/2009 4:36:46 PM #

Oh! Something else, and I think where a lot of the defensiveness comes from: No one is saying that because you don't have XX obstacles (hugely overweight, poor, addicted to food, three jobs at the Circle K, whatever) that it's easy. No one says that. It's just DIFFERENT. And yes, maybe harder in other ways. But that doesn't take anything away from the hard work it took YOU to get there. It just means that some people have different obstacles and issues, but also means that what worked for you might not work for them and vice versa.

jonniker

12/29/2009 4:39:39 PM #

I suppose people prefer some drama and self deprecation over doing better for one's self and becoming fit and healthier.  Perhaps because Linda can no longer joke about things that people identify with, that offends people.  

Eh, it all seems rather banal to me.  The whole arguement.  So Swistle is different then I imagined.  I was glad to know otherwise because dude secrets suck.  

So Linda is not all about the junk food any longer and talks more about health... she is one of the reasons I got off my lazy ass and started running again.  SO... perhaps those people who do not like fit Linda should not read fit Linda.  And those who do not like the new image of Swistle should not read the new image of Swistle.  I mean seriously it is that simple.  LIVE IN YOUR SPHERE OF INFLUENCE, Y'ALL.

Christina

12/29/2009 4:40:08 PM #

Hi, Kristin! Nice to meet you.  Also, I think I love you.  I followed a link from @mrsflinger on Twitter to here.  I am blown away by this post and conversation.  I can't add anything of value that has not already been said (better than I would have said it), but I can't stress enough how interesting I find this, as well as what a great deal of respect I have for pretty much everyone who has commented here so far.  

I also have a burning desire to mention that this might be the best line I've ever read in any post, ever:
"I'd rather have someone insert little balls of hamster poop in my ears than do another goddamned assisted pull up."

I can guarantee you that the next time I'm pushing myself to my limit on *any* routine, I am going to think about having little balls of hamster poop inserted into my ears.  And it will make me smile.  Wink

Now that I've had my little moment about the poop, I'll let the grownups continue.  You guys are amazing.

Lotus (Sarcastic Mom)

12/29/2009 4:40:43 PM #

Angella - The size 14 average woman is relevant.  It is increasing, as the rate of obesity increases, but it reflects what people regard as average or normal.  AND yes I I have seen Super Size me, Food Inc. I have Read In Defense of Food, The Omnivores Dilemma and many other books on diet and food and eating disorders and yoga, and many other body and health related media.  Being too fat, buying lots of clothes and knowing lots about food are a few of my obsessions.  I didn't mean to be mean, Smile  I won't lie that I get defensive.

jenB

12/29/2009 4:43:16 PM #

See? Just like I get defensive when people tell me to "eat a sandwich" or "have dessert already." Like I said, I judge nobody but myself. And GOOD LORD, I am good at that.

Angella

12/29/2009 4:49:23 PM #

It's my opinion that part of the reason people react so strongly to The 'YOU can do it, too!' message, is that, along with it, they often hear &/or infer The 'You SHOULD do it, too!' message, whether that part was implied or not.

(And sometimes it is.)

(And sometimes it isn't.)

The New Girl

12/29/2009 4:50:18 PM #

Frankly I think the point has been missed as the conversation has gone on that a woman who is clearly well-regarded felt that she had to "come out" as overweight.  I can't get past it.

I have been overweight and have hated myself as a result for it for most of my adult life, so color me biased. Also, at my thinnest I was my most mentally unhealthy. I have suffered from exercise addiction, binge issues, you name it. Nothing triggers my insanity like an extremely restricted diet. Adhering to a daily exercise and sane eating routine requires more mental and emotional effort for me for whatever reason than it may take some to plan a war.  I can estimate the Weight Watchers point value of any food you put in front of me, and I absolutely know how to eat "healthy meals."

I know this may sound insane but it is just my truth.

I also love food. Love. I can look at a pie and gain weight. Based on the damage I have done to my body, I have to be on a "diet" to maintain my weight, pretty much, and the balance of what I am willing to do to achieve this is very, very tenuous.

I'm not projecting my bad feelings about myself onto anyone, large or small, because I know I don't know anything about what it takes to get them there, not really. I have a lot of admiration for people who do what they need to do to look the way they look, and I honestly wouldn't trade my own self-perceptions for some of the shit some of the average-weight women I know put themselves through on any given day.

I think it must be gently stated that it is difficult for me as a heavier person in a society that values apparently thin women, to hear an average or even perhaps under-weight woman who also in many cases happens to be beautiful to call herself fat ANYTHING, although I know it's real. Because although fat-skinny may be very real to you, fat-fat can really, really suck - and in the moment when anyone judges you for it, or, even worse, you look at yourself in the mirror and hate yourself, it doesn't matter how you got there. And kicking yourself in the ass at that point for being lazy or stupid for making poor food choices just feeds the "have another cheeseburger" pop culture cycle that, like it or not, we major in on this continent. (I must say I don't know a lot about Canada, so no fair me dragging you into it.) And it also makes it even more difficult to fall down seven times, get up eight as is so often required in this kind of situation.

I can do it. I lost 15 pounds last year through a combination of sustained, 60-90 minutes of cardio six days per week and a managed diet. You're right. It is hard. It often feels very good, the physical strength and health is an obvious benefit. But for me it is exhausting and overwhelming and a daily struggle of not feelings like I'm ever doing enough and not seeing the results I want and losing sight of the goal when I need not to the most. Then I fell off the wagon during a stressful autumn, so I'm back in the cycle of self-hatred and anger that I quit working out for the millionth time in my life and started eating crazy again, and once more I have an arbitrary number of pounds on my resolution list.

I know I can do it. It just gets out of control before I know it. It is one of my least favorite things about my life, and yeah, I get really touchy when anyone tells me how to fix it - even you, whom I love. Smile But I get over it. I know you have your own approaches here as do the other commenters. I can't super-charge this with emotion anymore because you know what, it's just something I have to deal with. It's a head game.

And again, while it makes me unspeakably sad that anyone would have to "come out" as overweight, I've written my way here into remembering how that would be the case. I hope it was somehow helpful for her, all sidebars and commentary aside. This is one of the most deeply personal issues we carry, in my opinion. I firmly believe that a healthy combination of reality and compassion is required on all sides if "we", any small group of people with opinions about this, can hope to discuss it productively and to any good end.

(Sorry this is so long.)

Laurie

12/29/2009 4:50:46 PM #

Okay - I'm jumping in the fray here because I feel like this is a better place to do it then on Swistle's blog.  I've been reading Sundry for years and I read BIM now so Kristin I'm familiar with you, too.  I've read Jonniker for the last year so I KINDA feel I'm talking among friends here...I'm not out to offend or dismiss, just clarify or shed light, I guess.  *disclaimer over*

As I said at Swistle's place - I have been overweight my entire life, and it's NOT from a lack of exercise and eating well.  My youth through college years were spent as a multi-sport athlete and even then I wore sizes 12-16, my "youthful metabolism" was that bad. Yes, when I'm at my highest weight lack of exercise and poor diet is a big part the extra-extra weight, but I would venture to guess that for 75% of my life I have had a better hold on a healthy diet then most of the people I know (I'm saying this from my own personal experience with friends/family, not making sweeping generalizations about anyone I don't know personally).  And I KNOW that at 250 lbs+ I am fitter then a lot of the people in my life (most of which are "fatskinny", as you call it).  

I have to agree with so much of what Jonniker is saying...yes, of course, mathematics is a PART of the equation, but for many obese people (like me) it is not the largest part of the equation.  Last year I lost 40 lbs by keeping calories to about 1300/day and working out 10 or more hours a week.  That took about 5 months and I was still about 50 lbs overweight at that point. To maintain that loss I had to keep that schedule.  In order to lose another 7 I had to step it up to 14-15 hours a week and that took another month and I was miserable - I felt like an absolute slave to both the schedule and the scale.  So assertions "you can get up at 5 AM instead of 5:30 to do a workout video" are a joke to me. Because when, for my sanity, I cut back to a more sustainable schedule my reward was to re-gain 35 lbs!  

We're talking 2-3 hours of intense workouts (Power 90, 5-7 mile walks at 4.5 MPH, weight training, power yoga, etc) EVERY DAY. What  I'm wondering is if you, Kristin, would keep up your intense schedule and put up with the pain of hard workouts if you didn't gain anything out of it.  I don't for a single second think it's easy for you, but if it didn't give you the confidence to keep the lights on would you push yourself as hard?  Because when I embarked on my last super-workout-schdule (logging 47 - 53 miles a week for 3 months in training for the Breast Cancer 3-Day) and I got no significant weight-loss benefit I cut my schedule back to more life-allowing levels after the event.  I have never had body-image or confidence issues, so that's not an issue for me (I was a competitive swimmer for 15 years - I will never be in "hunched self-conscious positions" while by a pool).  And this is not a medical issue - I've been screened for all kinds of hormone/chemical imbalances and everything else.  Basically I've been told I have a really, really low metabolism (also know as GENES or DNA). This is the body I was born with and if I want to get to a "normal weight" I either have a lifetime of super-low-calories+extreme daily workouts (think Biggest Loser) or weight-loss surgery (which opens a whole other can of judgmental worms).  Of course this is not the case for every obese person out there, but for anyone to throw it out as some theoretical situation is ludicrous.  

And I really do feel that unless I keep this kind of schedule and somehow manage to lose 100+ lbs anyone who sees me on the street assumes I'm "eating mini muffins and watching Inglorious Basterds" all day while in reality I work out for 45 minutes 3-4 times a week and keep my food intake around 1300-1500 healthy/whole food calories.  Because for me, eating even less, which might mean a lower pant size, means zero satiety which leads to Doritos and that's bad.

And I think that's why things spun so out of control over at Swistle's place...comments like that are so incredibly (albeit unintentionally) hurtful to so many people.  It's this assumption, which Swistle pointed out, that if you are fat that you are lazy and do nothing but sit on your ass and shovel food in your mouth all day.  That you know what to do but don't do it.  

And @Sundry - I'm glad you brought up the alcoholism comparison.  Because I am wondering (in a very honest way) if you think you could have kicked alcoholism if you still had to drink 3-4 times a day?  Because when you are addicted to food, you still need to eat to stay alive.  Most other addictions are beat by completely removing the substance from your life.  This is not possible with food addiction, you still need to eat. Does this make it impossible? Of course not, but when I hear things like 'anyone can do it, you just have to want to!!' it makes me quite stabby.  Yes...anyone can lose weight, just like anyone can breastfeed or have a drug-free birth or get their PhD.  In all those cases the person saying "Just do it!" is assuming a level playing field, which is just not the case.

All this said, Sundry Mourning and BIM are 2 reasons I'm still keeping ANY sort of regular workout schedule, even with no visible result.  Linda's story is highly motivating (and I love the fitness talk, because it does keep me moving) as are all the ladies she's collected to blog at BIM.  They really have motivated me to keep doing SOMETHING instead of just saying f*ck it all and ballooning to over 300 lbs.  

kakaty

12/29/2009 4:55:23 PM #

Gah, I feel compelled to add that I know enough about body image across the board to know that a person of average weight - whatever that is - can have similar negative feelings when looking in a mirror and it can have similar ripple effects (from positive motivation to despair.) I didn't mean to negate the other experience, just to say that it can be disorienting to a more obviously overweight person to hear about it, that's all.

I'm going to shut up now.

Laurie

12/29/2009 5:06:04 PM #

kakaty: to answer your question, I have lots of problems with food. Do I have a food addiction? Well, I don't think I did before I quit drinking, but I sure have issues with food now—especially sugary foods, holy shit. It's very, very hard for me to maintain healthy eating habits, and at this point I'm in a pattern of eating well for X days, eating total crap for Y days. So far I've been able to keep X at a higher point than Y, but it's a bitch. So I get it, and I still say yes: in MOST cases, if someone wants to do it, they can.

I just can't agree that that message is wrong or offensive. It may not apply to every single person on the planet. That doesn't mean we should ban it and smother it with oversensitivity. As for The New Girl's comment: YOU CAN DO IT has nothing to do with YOU SHOULD DO IT. People are reading all kinds of judgement into this stuff when I think the point is to acknowledge there are basic facts with regards to calories in/calories out that apply towards the majority—but not ALL, OMG OK—of folks.

Sundry

12/29/2009 5:07:38 PM #


I loved reading your post. Weight is such a sensitive issue for people that it's hard to please everyone.  For me personally, your post struck the right cord at the right time.  Thank you.    

mBailey

12/29/2009 5:08:54 PM #

Kristen, I thought of you as I waded through the post and comments at Swistle's site, remembering the "fat/skinny" controversy.

I, personally, do believe the "anyone can do it" mind-set. I have clothes in my closet from size 6 to size 12 and I got to the low end and the high end all on my own. (And by "it" I simply mean "make changes").

I also acknowledge that it may be harder for some than others - physically, genetically, financially, emotionally and so on and so on. I have seen people work their buns off and have less dramatic results than I have. I have seen myself work hard and have fewer results than someone who isn't as committed. There is *something* there, but it does not tell the whole story, in my experience.

Where I start to get really conflicted is where people say they are "OK" with being quite overweight and filing that away under Reason X, because of how I personally feel about my own situation. The line between "accepting myself" and "giving up" is a thin one for me. I think it is easier to talk ourselves into "acceptance" than it is to talk ourselves into "action". Oh, I don't know if that makes sense!

Essentially, I think it would be easier for me to accept myself at 20lbs overweight than it would be to lose 20lbs. I also know that wouldn't be the right thing to do, for me.

I'm not sure what I'm adding to the discussion here, but I've been thinking about it all weekend too and I'm conflicted. I want women to accept their bodies, and love them, no matter what their shape or size. But I don't want that to mean it's OK for women to use "acceptance" as a reason not to be fit, since being fit is about more than your size or weight.

I hope everyone who has read these posts and the comments can find their own balance of real health, real body acceptance and personal fitness level - that can take some soul searching. I think these discussions help with that.

Lara

12/29/2009 5:14:09 PM #

Linda--I agree that in the majority of cases, 'YOU CAN DO IT' has [and should have] nothing to do with 'YOU SHOULD DO IT.'  

My point was that I think that's what lots of people HEAR, whether it was intended or not. And thus, have a strong, sometimes negative reaction to hearing it.  



The New Girl

12/29/2009 5:18:19 PM #

I don't feel it's my place to jump into this, per se; I just wanted to share one of my very favorite quotes which seems to be apt for this discussion:

Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world. ~Arthur Schopenauer

(And now I'm a douche who quotes things. Niiiiice.)

We all have our own emotional stuff to deal with, and we all have our own priorities, and while I truly don't believe anyone set out trying to be offensive, this is such a visceral issue for many. It's inevitable that emotions are gonna get riled, and feelings will be hurt. Given the intensely personal nature of each person's approach towards fitness/diet/etc., it doesn't seem that this is something that can --or should, honestly-- have a neat resolution.

metalia

12/29/2009 5:30:24 PM #

Whenever a topic this juicy comes up, my first tendency is to say something smartass. I will refrain, as this is a frigging minefield.

I have relatively skinny genes (not jeans, GENES). I am flabby these days due to inactivity due to injury. It sucks. But I can only imagine how bad it would be with fatter genes. Hmmmm. That being said, I have been up 30 lbs and ha e had to work my ass off really hard to get back to baseline. Again, this made me really feel for the plight of people who had the fat genes.

I had a friend I worked with a number of years ago. She taught me how to mountain bike, how to rock climb, and how to not eat like shit. This girl was an athletic ANIMAL, a smart eater, and did all the right things for her body. And she was a BIG girl. Not just big in frame and in stature, but well over her ideal body fat. This girl convinced me that genetics play a role in at least some cases. I also submit that these are the vast, vast minority of cases, but the exception disproved the hypothesis.

In the end, I have great admiration for those that push themselves to their physical limits, regardless of the outcome.

Simon

12/29/2009 5:31:12 PM #

Whoooa boy.

I have nothing of great intelligence to add, except I am inordinately fond of you all.

I am not at all overweight, but I do have a few, you know, MOTHERHOOD-RELATED pooches and etc. I wanted to rid myself of. About six months ago I began strength training and also incorporated some pretty drastic dietary changes. I've cut out all sugar, for instance. (That was more for my emotional well-being than anything else, but I did think a nice side effect might be seen in the waist area.) I've gone from not exercising at all to going to the gym 4-5 times a week. The results, weight-wise: I have lost 4 pounds. 4. Four.  (Granted, I probably put on some muscle. But I look in the mirror, and guys, I look pretty much the same.)

I'm not complaining about my lack of weight loss at all-- I'm trying to point out that this shit is HARD. Much harder than I anticipated. Which is not to say that exercise is a waste of time! Far from it. The benefits have been enormous, for me. I love feeling stronger. I love the increased energy. I'm mentioning this because I can not even begin to imagine the uphill battle it is for people who want to lose a serious amount of weight. Cannot imagine.

alice

12/29/2009 5:41:14 PM #

Right. So. You nailed it with this: "It radiates in a million unexpected ways."

Being healthy is a choice - an active choice that we get to make daily. I don't always make that choice, but when I do, blammy - the world opens up. Kicking my coffee habit this year was crucial to practicing better self-care. And it has nothing to do with weight.

You all already know. Skinny girl here. And I've written about that, too: http://thepeakconditionproject-gwen.blogspot.com/2009/04/aww-yeah-skinny-btchezzz.html" rel="nofollow">thepeakconditionproject-gwen.blogspot.com/.../aww-yeah-skinny-btchezzz.html

The problem with skinny is you can think you're fit when you're not. After an annual last year, moments after the stirrups were removed, my lady doc asked how much exercise I get a week. I told her I do a lot of yoga. She asked about cardio. I said, "you mean...like running for the bus?"

This year, in response, I started the Peak Condition Project. I spent 90 days working on cutting out sugar, salt, crappy stuff. Jumping rope. Exercising daily. Blogging it.

You're right that it's not a big financial investment. If you have a jump rope and know how to use your body, you're pretty near set. Blaming a lack of exercise and self-care on a lack of funds is lamesauce.

I'm training now for the Tiarathon (my first half marathon) at Disney with the #shredheads in March. Here's the straight deal: I'm a terrible runner. As someone commented to me today, "you must look awkward when you run." It's true, I do. My uncle called me Kermit when I was a girl. Never quite recovered.

Right, there are always reasons not to put on your running shoes and commit to yourself.

That's what it is. A commitment to yourself. Fail to make it and you answer to nobody but yourself. But making it? Well, that allows a community to get up and support you. To strap on their shoes, roll out their mats, shake up their protein shakes and rally for you. And that's why we do this.

*to many more birthdays*


Gwen Bell
-
http://twitter.com/gwenbell
http://gwenbell.com
http://http://thepeakconditionproject-gwen.blogspot.com/
www.dailycamera.com/health-fitness/ci_13169014

Gwen Bell

12/29/2009 5:45:26 PM #

Gotta weigh in (heh) on "you can do it!" vs. "you should do it!"

My husband has said the former, and I've heard the latter. I personally understand the pitfalls of that Telephone game where the message is garbled thanks to our own anxieties. When I'm exhorting friends on Twitter or via email that YES! You can TOTALLY do a triathlon!, it's pure encouragement and excitement. I'm not judging the size of their ass or their eating habits. I want them to feel just as fabulous as I do when I accomplish something I wasn't sure I could.

And there's the rub: Myself, I can't stick to a regime simply because it's good for me. Or because I want to fit into those clothes I wore when I subsisted almost exclusively on vodka and Chinese food. I have to have an athletic goal in mind. That's why I signed up for events next summer that require me to train NOW.

I say this as a lifelong NON-athlete. I could barely shuffle two laps around the track in HS gym, and more than once I was nearly kicked out of ROTC for failing PT tests.

It's a matter of finding out what moves you.

Julie @ The Mom Slant

12/29/2009 5:47:12 PM #

Wow.  I totally agree with you.  I'm not fit because I'd rather sit on the couch with a bowl of chocolate-sauce-covered french vanilla ice cream than go for a run or hang out with Jillian Michaels.

Thank you for being so honest.

Also, one line that made me laugh, you wrote "exercises" instead of "excuses".  ... "There will always be a million exercises for not getting started..."

Smile

Jen

12/29/2009 5:48:11 PM #

I have written and erased a few times now.  I guess the most important thing I want to say is that it is possible for us bigger girls to not get caught up in the bullshit from either side and try to become comfortable with the bodies we have.  I know that I am not totally comfortable yet, but as I am worrying less and less about how much I weigh and more about listening to what my body wants and needs on any given day, I am losing weight and toning up.  I decided before I got pregnant with my second son that trying to lose weight was just making me neurotic and even with the extra exercise and calorie counting it wasn't working.  When I let go of the stress of trying to attain a "better" body I started losing weight.  I only gained 15 pounds with my pregnancy and that is with gestational diabetes.  Now a year postpartum I am well under my pre-pregnancy weight and it isn't because I am trying.  

Kristen I know that you aren't trying to be too judgmental, but like anything where you call bullshit, there can be hurt feelings.  I think that assuming that fat people are eating huge unhealthy meals and not exercising is a little judgmental.  

I may now be jumped on, but as someone who is a bigger girl I felt hurt when I read this post.  I have now spent almost and hour writing and rewriting my comment, and I am still unsure about posting.  I am trying not to be the one who is upset and now thinking that more people are looking at me and thinking that woman should get out and exercise more and put down the damn donut.  I am trying not to be one who is has to try to keep her self-esteem intact.  I just have to try and reach the woman I am inside and tell her again that it is ok, that people see me as someone who is outgoing and intelligent. That the first thing they are thinking isn't about how much I weigh, but that I have a nice smile and I can make people feel welcome.

Kristen I am glad that you are getting fit and healthy and are feeling better about yourself and your body.  I just have to hope that when you see me, you see me and not some lazy snacker with a hate on for exercise.

Gwen

12/29/2009 5:59:06 PM #

Kristin, I found this blog post (& blog!) through a re-tweet from @gwenbell, & I just want to let you know how uplifting this was for ME to hear. Not so much in the fat vs. skinny debate (& it's so, so tired!), but in the exercising, getting fit area.

I loathe exercising, & while I've been telling myself "Okay tomorrow I'll do some Wii Fit" I can never bring myself to do it. I suppose I'm a bit like you; not fat & not in dire NEED of exercise, but there are some areas of my body that could use some fine-tuning. Still, I never want to WANT to exercise. But everything you said in this post -- so eloquently & real, by the way -- makes a great deal of sense. & by reading this post, you have inspired me to stick true to one of my resolutions (I call them rules) for this new year, which is to exercise & go on hikes with my husband once a week.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: THANK YOU. I often shy away from fitness blogs, but this was an exception.

:]

Ev`Yan

12/29/2009 6:26:03 PM #

I am incredibly impressed at the thoughtful conversation that's happening here, wow.  Thanks, all of you.  

Gwen, when I see you I see your smile and your very sweet spirit -- and your very soulful eyes.  I don't look at my friends and judge them by what they're wearing or how they smell or who they're dating, though god, that last one can be hard.  I am sorry your feelings were hurt. My intention in writing this was just to assert my belief that, in the vast majority of cases, if you want to change your body, you can.  If you don't want to/need to/whatever...it's absolutely your perogative and in no way messes with your markedly delightful personality.

kristind

12/29/2009 6:26:55 PM #

Getting to some of the brass tacks of food, what you eat can either send your blood sugar skyrocketing or it can keep your blood sugar stable.  What worked for me, and several other people I know, and people they know, is eating more fat and protein (and plenty of vegetables) and cutting out/down fructose.  

Eating fewer calories necessitates having to be choosier about what one is going to eat. Cereals and rice (to name two popular carb sources) are high in calories but low in satiety value.  They just don't keep us satisfied for long.  Avocados, eggs, meat, yogurt, cheese (in limited quantities because cheese tends to be higher in fat than protein), nuts, seeds, monounsaturated oils, fish oil, etc. creates satiety.  So if you're only eating, say 1500 cals a day to lose weight, choosing foods that provide satiety for hours at a time, is practical.  Eating more fatty/protein foods keeps us satisfied longer and keeps our blood sugar balanced.  

I realize some may call that simple, but I would say give it a try and see the difference it makes.  Instead of cereal and high fructose fruit (like apples) for breakfast, try eggs/egg whites and your favourite meat (bacon, turkey bacon, sausage, whatever you like). Down 10 grams of fish oil with that.  I guarantee you will feel satisfied/not hungry for at least 3 to 4 hours.  You will also not crave anything.  (An alternative to meat/eggs is a high protein shake with blackberries or raspberries, a dollop of yogurt, maybe some raw chocolate, and a good protein source - like hemp.)

A bowl of Cheerios and homo. milk (about the same amount of calories) will leave you hungry before an hour is out.  I have yet (but this is just me) to feel satisfied after one bowl of cereal regardless of what it is.

I also have wheat gluten issues, which is a common affliction, so there are other reasons I resist whole wheat products.

A higher ratio of fats (30%), protein (30%) and fewer carbs (23%) is a workable simple solution. You can still eat the foods you like, you just program your day differently.

All this is to say the very popular, much advocated low fat diets don't work.  Because they don't create satiety.  Eat more fat, less (preferably as little as possible fructose), feel better, lose weight. It actually is simple.

Lesley

12/29/2009 6:29:05 PM #

*Sigh* I will be on Synthroid the rest of my life. If the pattern holds I will have to be put on higher and higher doses each year. I have a bad back, and I have quit smoking.
I watch what I eat and I can eat healthy foods like a pig and stay under a thousand calories per day. I love walking with my dog, and I am a size eight. But I'm not healthy. I don't have the muscle tone and strength that I had back in my Army days. I stretch as I can and I'm looking into a local gym, But I'm unable to do many of the things that I used to. I would kill just to have a back that could bear the load. If you have a body that is fairly healthy, Take it for all it's worth and revel in it. Exercise is a privilege and a blessing.

Anna

12/29/2009 6:33:28 PM #

Lots of interesting comments here, some agreeing with you 100%, others with more experience and knowledge perhaps agreeing a little, but pointing out that your opinion is limited, judgmental and myopic.  

More power to you if you want to work out and eat healthy.  And I don't find it boring that anyone talks about their fitness, provided it's just a part of who they are (for some, it's the end-all, be-all of who they are.  They can't talk about anything else!)   But to assume that I'm overweight because I eat too much and don't exercise is the ultimate of judgmental and cruel.   You say "barring medical condition", but it's strictly a parenthetical element in your whole post, but it's more to blame than you think in more people than you know.    As one commenter said, "If I were one of those people, I would cry at your post."  Well, I am one of "those people".  I gained 80 pounds in 5 years because the medical community couldn't get their act together and figure out that I had an illness causing me to gain weight, despite doing an hour of aerobics a day,  5 days a week and strict calorie counting (of healthy foods, not soda, Doritos, and cheesecake).  Finally I got diagnosed, and now they can't get their act together enough to get my hormones back in balance so I can lose weight, despite my still working out for an hour a day, 5 days a week and strict calorie counting.   And our medical system, unfortunately, doesn't allow me to treat myself so that all my work actually amounts to something useful for getting me fit.

And someone else says in the comments that it's the minority that has problems like this.  Well, I'm here to tell you it's not the minority you think it is.  Stop being an "expert" and start doing some research.  Read some of Mary Shomon's information, or Dr. Kent Holtorf's website.  Don't assume that because something worked for you that it will work for others.  Those medical conditions you dismiss so easily because you're not unfortunate enough to have them are becoming epidemic.  Millions in this country have diseases that prevent them from losing weight.

Cindy C.

12/29/2009 7:11:50 PM #

just a few thoughts:

@kristin great post. i have to say i agree with you. at 5'10" i've weighed anywhere from 145 - 220 lbs in my adult life. when not pregnant or post-partum, my max weight was 175. i'm lucky to have the desire to work at being healthy and the ability to not overeat. but after i had twins, i had to work my ass off to lose the 70 lbs i had gained. do i want to eat an entire texas chocolate sheet cake? hell, yes. do i? hell, no. it would make me sick and i'd be sad not to have a slice the next few days. FOR ME, it's all about moderation with the sweets and trucking around with my jogging stroller (which is way cheaper than a gym.)

@sundry - my dad is an alcoholic and when he finally chose to stop drinking 6 years ago at the age of 65, he also started craving sugar. while we'd rather he was neither, my sister and i agree that we'd rather he was overweight than an drinking alcoholic.

when talking about average size, does it mean normal or the mean/average? i really don't know and am wondering if the number is climbing because people are gaining more weight or if it just more acceptable. tangent: the whole deal about marilyn monroe being a 14/16/whatever is silly since dress sizes have changed in the last 50 years. her 16 dress size is a present-day 8. (kinda ties in with the question about whether we are getting bigger or not.)

and do "millions in this country have diseases that prevent them from losing weight" have preventable diseases related to weight? or are there millions of people who have non-weight-related diseases. i'm not being snarky, seriously.

does that make sense? i'm not poking, but genuinely curious.

mommymae

12/29/2009 10:12:52 PM #

Ok. So. God I fucking love you people. When I posted my comment way the hell up there, I don't think the others had been modified yet but still, I stand in the same space. I'm very much like Angella and knowing I'm not built to be thin means I strive harder. And when I don't? I can tell.

As someone who is drinking entirely too much and can see the results on the scale, I know I have choices. I also know what I'm SUPPOSED to do, that doesn't make it easy.

But that pretty much has been hashed over a few dozen times. I'm just another girl out there wanting to be more fit and thinking that it truly IS possible, even if I don't have the genes of a fitness coach.

Mrs. Flinger

12/30/2009 12:02:45 AM #

Anna, I am curious as to why you "stay under a thousand calories a day."  That's an very low number of calories.  If you're eating under a thousand your body will burn muscle and conserve fat.  Under a thousand is not recommended, except under specific circumstances and for short periods of time.    If I misinterpreted, I'm sorry.  

Hypothyroidism is hugely common for women, and a complicated disease that isn't easily remedied (practitioners specializing in hormone conditions aren't easy to find).   It's extremely enervating.  One thing that has helped me, in addition to taking T3 and T4 is fish oil (10 grams a day), a hearty dose of D3 (3000 Units - my doc prescribes 5000 IUs daily in the winter).  Eliminating fructose also helped.

As for the back, a credible certified Pilates instructor working one on one with you may help.  I worked with someone twice a week for a year and she virtually cured chronic back, knee joint, and hip problems, which were extensive as I'd fallen down a cement stairwell and had some chronic injuries from car accidents and running (improperly).   Actually, she didn't cure me so much as show me what I had to do to change, and my body changed over the course of a year. I now have the tools to do the work on my own. Not equipment, just exercises I do daily.  It proved to be a good investment.

Lesley

12/30/2009 12:42:04 AM #

I think the problem was that a lot of people agreed with each other, but because they didn't have their listening ears on, and because they were jumping to negative assumptions about what the other person meant, and because they were treating the few nutcase extreme comments as representative of a whole side of the argument, they weren't hearing it.

Swistle

12/30/2009 1:19:43 AM #

Kristin,

This is so spot on. I haven't read all the comments or controversy, but did see some comments where you apologize to people and say you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Don't backpedal. This is the most honest post on fat/fitness I have ever read. Kudos to you for being brave enough to post it.

At 5 feet 10 inches tall and 138 pounds, I am "fat skinny." I have never exercised a day in my adult life and stay "thin" but simply not eating very much (honestly, a glass of wine and handful of crackers constitutes dinner.)  To look at me in jeans and a T-shirt, you'd think I was very thin, perhaps even fit, which I am clearly not. Your posts on fitness have really inspired me.

I have to admit, I am biased toward fat people. Perhaps genes play a small part in some people being fat, but I think they just have to work harder. There are so many articles on how to be healthy/skinny, and the diet industry is worth billions of dollars in North America. And while I'm certainly not a model of health, it's really not that complicated to me: DON'T EAT SO MUCH CRAP AND EXERCISE. I also think some of the "diseases" people mention are a product of our lifestyle/culture--factory farming/processed food/chemicals, etc. But that's a whole other story (I recommend reading In Defense of Food: An Eater's Manifesto.)

Thanks for the thought-provoking post.






Bec

12/30/2009 1:53:06 AM #

Hope I don't get alot of hate mail for this but... I agree with Jen B and Kate completely. I've been both sides and I have to say that fitness as a "lifestyle" is a lot like a religion and at times it can be very intolerant of other lifestyle issues and obstacles that are real. Poverty, culture, genetics, hormones etc. should not be sniffed at!! That almost smacks of snobbery.
It reminds me of my Mom who said she did not believe that women "really" have hot flashes that are debilitating- they must be doing something wrong. Now does that seem reasonable to say?
It is reassuring to believe that we have complete control over something as personal as our bodies, as fitness lifestyle people often believe, but the reality is we only have partial control. Dieting and fitness can become addictive and for what appears to be the cleanest most healthy reasons but is often related to self shame and often in the context of co-dependency (sorry, don't hit me!, lol). I am not focused on any individual here when I say that, it's just one way of looking at it. Women should not have to be ashamed of any body in any light in front of their BF. That is sad to me. That is male centric thinking in my opinion. Yes, yes, our bodies are our temples and all that but there is a lot to living life that is complex and so we all find our way as best we can- even those who do not work out an hour a day and eat cottage cheese. Thanks jen B and Sweet and Salty Kate! And Kristin too, for provoking this intriguing conversation.

starrlife

12/30/2009 1:55:47 AM #

Eep, okay, a few things: NO ONE is saying the "You can do it!" should be smothered with oversensitivity. But I don't think it's too much to ask for a LITTLE sensitivity on the topic here. When a post is titled "I call bullshit!" after such a heated discussion as the one at Swistle's place (which, frankly, no one even knows what that was ABOUT at this point, including ME), I don't find that to be particularly sensitive, though I don't think it was meant to BE insensitive. This is, whether we like it or not, a sensitive topic, and that's a little incendiary. And I feel like the constant "Yes, we COVERED that, it is an EXCEPTION!" message is a little insensitive to people who are trying to tell their stories. Sometimes a lot of what people are saying isn't arguing against the simplicity of the "Anyone can do it" message, but simply saying hey, aside from that message, there seems to be a lack of understanding for the broader picture here. People want to be heard instead of dismissed.

That's what's bothering me the most in this conversation -- it's all being taken against a very narrow focus, when there are people saying hey, man, I'm not just an exception outlined in a quick sentence to be quickly dismissed with, "We already COVERED that!" and a list of reasons why that works for them, but not most people. People just want to be heard, and to be acknowledged that hey, man, it's not all black and white. I think this is proving that the "very, very few exceptions" and "vast majority of people" are different numbers than you might think.

And finally, I am severely hypothyroid, and have Hashimoto's disease, too. It does not affect my weight or ability to lose weight. But that doesn't mean that other people don't genuinely have problems because of it. We are all unique snowflakes and everything affects us differently, and I do not assume because of my circumstances that it can be applied to everyone.

jonniker

12/30/2009 2:24:32 AM #

Hi Kristen.

Great post.  Just found your blog via a tweet.  Will follow for a bit, see what I can apply.
-mike.

Michael Dundas

12/30/2009 2:24:55 AM #

AMEN! I have loved reading your (and Sundry's) journey and find you both an inspiration, no one, fat or skinny, has the right to call you self-centered, shallow, or any other word until they have gotten off their arse and put in the work themselves- and FELT how great it feels. Keep up the good work.

Jolie

12/30/2009 2:40:47 AM #

Okay, so I am LOVING that Jonniker got to bust out the 'We are all Unique Snowflakes' metaphor again. LOVING.

xoxo

The New Girl

12/30/2009 2:48:04 AM #

I just LOVE that everyone keeps ignoring the message of Chris and Katay's posts.  THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE FOR WHICH THIS EQUATION WILL NEVER NEVER WORK.  NOT EVER.  You all act like they are JUST MAKING IT UP!  And just lying!  And that it is all just EXCUSES when it is not.  Basically you are advocating anorexia and exercise bulimia for all them because YOU CAN DO IT!  YOU CAN DEVELOP AN EATING DISORDER IF YOU WANT IT BAD ENOUGH.  And it really fucking angers me.

jenny

12/30/2009 3:08:00 AM #

I have stayed out of this, because when I try to comment, my head gets all muddled and I'm not sure how to begin. I think what Jonniker said above about dismissiveness is exactly right. Yes, there was a parenthetical about medical issues, but there also seems to be an attitude that these are rare exceptions, and that the people who bring them up are splitting hairs, or in essence saying "WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE WHO HAVE ONE LEG? HARD TO EXERCISE WITH ONE LEG, ISN'T IT??"
I think the hormonal components of weight are much, much more common than people realize, especially for women, and the more weight you gain, the more androgens and insulin, etc. you are working against. And the mathematics...well, it is NOT simple mathematics, it just isn't.

For the first 25 years of my life, my highest weight was 98 pounds, usually around 95. I tried everything to gain weight. I drank CANS upon CANS of Ensure, I did strength training and I ate constantly. I went to doctors, I went on birth control pills. People assumed I was anorexic, and said terrible things to me, things they never would have said if I were OVERweight. If it were really a matter of calories in/calories out, I would have gained at least something. But I didn't, until after I had stopped trying, when I gained 50 pounds in 18 months without doing anything differently at all. Since then, I have had times where I can eat perfectly and exercise every day, and still be unable to lose a pound. I know, I know--I'm an exception! We covered that! But I do not believe that those who have complicating factors are a tiny minority. I do think that, for MANY people, it IS just a matter of not wanting to put in the effort, you're right. Now, for instance, I am carrying about 25 extra pounds, and I know that I could shed them if I prioritized my life a bit differently.

I know how good it feels to be fit. I didn't feel fit at 95 pounds, and I am not fit now, but there was a time after the weight gain started (but before it went ROGUE), when I was at what felt like the right weight for me. I didn't get weak from hypoglycemia, but I didn't have the difficulty moving that comes with extra weight that makes exercise so much harder. My body felt strong, I was doing a tremendous amount of yoga, I felt capable and confident. I look forward to getting back there. I have been very inspired by reading Sundry's fitness posts. They have helped me believe I might be able to do things I wouldn't have thought I could, in completely unrelated areas of my life. And when I am ready to make fitness a priority again, I will be glad to have her to look to for motivation.

See, this is why I didn't comment before. I am not making any sense. My whole, sloppily-stated point was that I think "fitness" and "weight loss" have been conflated in a way that makes me uncomfortable, and not because I think "fat is fit." I think that FITNESS is simple (not easy, but SIMPLE.) I think everything Kristin said in her post, applied to FITNESS, is right on. But weight loss is more complicated, and I truly believe fitness and weight are not at all the same thing. I know Kristin does too (isn't that the point of "fatskinny?") but I don't think it came across very well in her post. Does that make any sense?

Alexa

12/30/2009 3:12:18 AM #

Jonniker, I appreciate your well-reasoned responses, and think you have a future in diplomacy.  Kristin, I also appreciate your willingness to consider new viewpoints. Finally, I appreciate the generally civil and respectful tone here. Thanks for hosting this discussion, Kristin!

Kate

12/30/2009 3:51:58 AM #

One thing I thought of when I read Swistle's post and now I am reminded of was watching a "where are they now" episode of The Biggest Loser.  The former contestants were told by the doctor on the show that the maintenance that they would have to perform would be much greater than a person who was relatively fit from the start.  So, after being overweight they would have to work out for an hour or more a day, six days a week.  

I think one of the things Swistle was saying (I'm assuming) is that the effort it would take her, and others her size, is much more than what it would take others who are needing to tone up, drop ten pounds, etc.  For someone who has the time to be able to do that, great, for others it is a struggle to find the time and make that an integral part of their life.  Yes, it CAN be done, but it's not always realistic.  For others who say, bullshit, find the time, I do it after my kids are asleep then yes, that makes sense if your children have a decent bedtime and your exercise consists of half an hour.  Now let's assume that you have a different life with children at different bedtimes and your workout is going to take over an hour.  

I don't think that she was saying that genetics are the only cause and it can't be done, it is just much more difficult to achieve and then maintain a lower weight and for some people who struggle with it, it doesn't seem like a realistic part of their daily life.  As someone who has a very difficult time finding childcare that is local and affordable since my husband is on the opposite schedule of me, I know how hard it is to carve out the time to do simple things.  I am not overweight and it is not difficult for me to maintain my weight and diet, but if I had to give anymore effort than I do?  It would seem impossible.

Jenny

12/30/2009 3:54:33 AM #

I found you through Lotus and I'm subscribing based on this post.  I waffle between a size 2 and a whopping size 4 (*sarcasm*). I am however, out of shape. No one EVER believes this.  And I often feel really bad for those people because I know they'd rather be an unfit 4 (or 6 or 8) than an unfit whatever-they-are.  Other times I'm offended, like when other women in my office (10 years ago) said hurtful things when I joined a gym. They acted like I was being super-vain about my skinniness or something, rather than just me trying to start exercising for my health, which I hadn't been doing.

Anyway, long story short, I'll read you - fellow fatskinny girl! I desperately need some inspiration as I currently do not exercise. Also, I'm eating cookies right now. Just keeping it honest all up in here.

amy2boys

12/30/2009 3:56:45 AM #

Well said!

I have four young kids, a part time job, and a husband who is at work 12+ hours a day and it kills me when friends tell me they wish they could work out too, but they're too busy!

I haul myself out of bed every morning before daybreak to run, bike, swim, hit the gym, etc.  Would I rather sleep in?  Hell yes!

I certainly don't have the perfect body, but I manage to stay healthy and fit training for triathlons and road races.  I also love that my kids see me taking care of myself and working towards goals like my longer races.  

Jaci

12/30/2009 4:23:50 AM #

This is a joke right? YOu are kidding right?....seriously? you are naturally skinny and admittedly HAVE NO IDEA what the lifestyle of an overweight person is...and no idea of how genetics does QUITE FACTUALLY and MEDICALLY PROVEN plays a role and you decide to say its all a lie?

HYSTERICAL.
Keep up the comedy writing! You are on a (fat) roll!!!

The Glamorous Life Association

12/30/2009 4:46:22 AM #

You didn't offend me.  I'm mostly surprised that you would seem to be opportunistic, following up a blogger's heartfelt discussion of an issue by "calling out"; that you would choose such inflammatory "I call bullshit" approach, which by definition says you think you know more than others; and that you would say something so blatantly wrong:  "I do not believe you can be very overweight if you are eating balanced, healthy meals and exercising for an hour a day, 6 days a week. Anyone can do this."  You simply are misinformed, or biased, or both.  Which surprises me, because how can it work as a business model for Aqufit to not understand your target population? When you start calling out bullshit, that's how it ends, in a circle of everyone calling out each other's bullshit.  Yuck.

Deb

12/30/2009 5:22:16 AM #


It's become obvious I'm not going to be able to respond to everyone individually.  

But Deb, I have to respond to you.  Yeah, my title was controversial and maybe opportunistic but man, I just got tired of seeing so many excuses, everywhere, for not taking control.  For wanting to be fit and healthy but not wanting to put in any work.  I have scads of email from women who say they'd love to work out but can't because they don't have money/time/genetic predisposition.  I am saying I believe there are ways around all of those for much of the North American population.  There will always be exceptions and medical conditions (mental and physcial) are the most valid of these.  None of my opinions above count if you have a medical condition and perhaps I didn't make that clear.

Anyway, the target audience for Aqufit are healthy men and women who want to improve their bodies and health and who believe they can do it.  They are willing to cut out the junk and push their bodies to sometimes extremely uncomfortable places.  

Kristin

12/30/2009 5:51:18 AM #

I think this is a very "tough love" post. And people may be outraged, but it is your truth, the only one you (as a supremely motivated health and fitness buff) know to tell. For those who disagree with your opinion, this is a wonderful opportunity for enlightenment, non?

Hanni

12/30/2009 6:14:31 AM #

*applause*
Burghbaby shared this in Google reader and I love it. Adding you to my Google reader.
Excellent post. I know EXACTLY why my jeans don't fit and I could whine all day and night that it's someone or something else's fault or I could do what I'm trying to do now, tie on my Nikes and do something about it. It feels good. And helps me keep up with a very fast 2-year-old.

Kelly

12/30/2009 6:14:54 AM #

I just thought of this amazing, inspirational series of photos I saw a year ago or more: www.boston.com/.../...summer_paralympic_games.html

Talk about a bunch of people who were probably told they COULDN'T do it, but didn't let that stop them.

Sundry

12/30/2009 6:31:24 AM #

As a woman who has "fit" genes, I have to disagree with you, but only because I'm getting wiser as I get older.  Yes, people are born with different body types, and some folks do find it way, way harder to remain "fit" as it's defined popularly.

It's easy for "fit" people who have never been "fat" to assume that whatever they do to be "fit" would work in some way or other for everyone.  But that's myopic.  That's like telling my brown daughters that if they would just stay out of the sun, they too could have white skin.  Or telling me that if I just tanned, my skin could be the same beautiful brown that theirs is.

I have two daughters (not biologically related) who have been served pretty much exactly the same food and encouraged in the same physical activities for the past two years.  Their bodies are very different from each other, and always will be.  Neither is obese, but that's because I am extremely careful about their diets.  Many kids are raised by parents who don't believe it's right to limit kids' food intake, etc.  Then they are already obese before they even get a clue about diet and exercise.  Yes, for most of them, they "could" lose weight, but it is a lifelong struggle, and it is a lot different from trying to keep your fatskinny thighs from jiggling.

It's also a lot different for a "fatskinny" person to get mostly naked to go to the gym or for a long run in public, versus an overweight or obese person.  Honestly, how much skin would you be willing to show if you were over 200 lbs?  Try to be honest with yourself - to truly see this from another's perspective.

Being skinny isn't everything.  I know lots of heavy people who have lived long, meaningful lives.  If it's a choice between feeling deprived and incompetent all the time versus just accepting the body one fits into, I can't blame people for opting for the latter.  But I do send kudos to those who do set and pursue a fitness goal in a positive way.

SKL

12/30/2009 6:33:21 AM #

I love this! Just found your blog on Twitter. I've run now for 20 + years. I do have a muffin top...better cut out that wine and chips! Great post. Sending it to my daughter who was born without a right hand. Does Cross Fit with a special hook made for her cuz she was born without most of her right hand. She also does triathlons. Can you picture the courage it takes for the swim? Tell that to those who don't want to get off the couch!

Tess The Bold Life

12/30/2009 6:44:09 AM #

Well said - I agree wholeheartedly.

After being the kid who was OBESE until 7, despite not overeating, I stopped eating altogether and developed an eating disorder which often included intense fitness focus. Now, I'm a fatskinny chick in a size 0, goal-setting to becoming more healthy - not just more perfect.

Point being: my body in childhood, my mother (who I took after), my siblings' weights without firm management... all would have led me to the "genes" excuse, had I not tumbled down the rabbit hole and ultimately discovered that the shape of our bodies is literally the one thing that we can control in life.

Zoeyjane

12/30/2009 6:52:10 AM #

"I've looked at fat from both sides now..."

I've been reading this debate, here and at Swistle's, with deepening anxiety and discomfort.

I was a pretty fat kid into my early twenties.  Getting fit saved my life.  It taught me things about how to live that my parents should have.  I learned discipline, how to achieve goals and to respect myself.  

But.

But, the ugly underbelly of my journey was the body image piece.  When I first got fit, the reward was in the improved body image.  I was no longer invisible to the world.  i got attention.  I got on stage in a bikini at 9% bodyfat for a bodybuilding competition.  It was powerful to be thin.  I thought about it all the time.

I discovered that I always saw flaws, even at 9% body fat.  I discovered that my moods were negatively affected by the strict dieting I had to do.  I discovered that I wasn't meant to be that lean.  It took such an effort.  I was very close to developing an eating disorder.  I was boring as hell.

That was 22 years ago, Since then?  I've run marathons, done triathlons, raced bikes (road and mountain) and competed in weightlifting competitions.  I eat and train for performance.  I look pretty good for a 48 year old mom when I have my clothes on.

I don't look like Linda or Kristen.  And the voice that tells me I should is still inside my head and it bugs the f&*@k out of me.  So when I hear Kristen and Linda talk about the effect of exercise on their bodies it does make me uncomfortable. I feel like it's dangerously close to becoming part of the "you should exercise to be hot" chorus that I wish would just go away...please don't flame me for saying that I know it's not what either of them intend, but there it is.

But when they talk about what it feels like to achieve goals, I get it.  I am always training for something.  I push myself very hard to be better, stronger, faster.  See, I've discovered that training hard makes me happy and balanced, and keeps my depression at bay.  I wish we talked about these elements of fitness more.  

I catch myself feeling superior all the time, for being the only one at the track at dawn doing intervals, for ordering meat and veggies at dinner and eschewing the bread, for running a 5k in under 24 minutes...And it is NOT ok.  I am not better than other people because I can always find the time and because I do it even though it's hard.  Fitness is a  closely held value of mine, I need it as part of my life and it makes me happy.  
I'm lucky.  I found that.  But I really believe that other people can feel happy and balanced without it.  And I've met people who really, truly, loathe exercise.  Far be it form me to tell them they should do it. Even if they want to lose weight. ( Recent studies show that NEAT, non exercise activity thermogenesis, the time you spend house cleaning, gardening, running after your kids can be much more important to weight loss than "exercise").

But Im sure there are a lot of people out there  suffering like I was, people who don't know yet that exercise can bring you joy just in the act of doing it.  It can help with depression, anxiety, insomnia.  Those are the people I wish we fitness mavens should spend time trying to reach.  I don't really care about the message that everyone can change their body for the better, what I do care about is the message that everyone can surprise themselves by finding the limits of what they are capable of.   Really.  I promise.




Leigh

12/30/2009 7:21:02 AM #

Kristin, sorry about misspelling your name.  I know better, I'm an avid reader.

Leigh

12/30/2009 7:42:56 AM #

Pingback from sukingmarrow.wordpress.com

I Call Bull «  Sukingmarrow

sukingmarrow.wordpress.com

12/30/2009 8:30:14 AM #

Well, I guess I have to respectfully disagree with you. While I don't completely agree with everything Swistle had to say, my thoughts on this subject fall much closer to her's than your own, but that wasn't always the case. My dad got really into marathon running in his fifties, which was a great life improvement for him. He worked out (and still does) six times a week, ate amazingly healthy, and could never ever get out of the overweight category. I know several people like him. What more, exactly, are they to do? How much more exercise can they do or less food can they eat? Yes, if you move more and eat less you'll lose weight but some people just don't need to move and much or eat as little to see the pounds shed. It must be so frustrating to hear a relatively thin person note that while they weren't exercising or eating right they weighed 20 pounds more. 20 pounds, that's it? Many people will gain 100 pounds when not exercising or eating and have to kill themselves to drop 10 pounds. And I say this as someone with the privilege of being thing without a lot of work.

One of the dangers is confusing exercise with fitness. Exercise is a hobby, fitness should be a way of life. Exercise is going to the gym, lifting weights, doing a video, playing a team sport. Fitness is something more. It's a combination of physical well-being with emotional well-being. It's taking a walk around your neighborhood with your dog, turning off the tv to get down on the floor and play with your kids, making a home-cooked meal with your family. We can't expect everyone to share a love for the hobby of exercise but I hope we can compel people to make life changes that improve not just their physical state. That, to me, is fitness.

I've been there. When I started exercising regularly 7 or 8 years ago I was a convert. I wanted to shout from the rooftops about how Wonderful is was. How AMAZING! How EVERYONE should do this. How everyone COULD do this! Over time I sort of realized that, oh, the thing about fitness is I'm going to have to do it for the REST OF MY LIFE. Since I hope to live for several more decades I don't expect that I'll always have the same level of interest in exercising as a hobby. I do however hope to always stay fit.

scantee

12/30/2009 9:17:50 AM #

I don't mean to over-post, but re-reading these posts, I realize that the "why are you fat" debate reminds me of something I am going through with my son. Jonniker, thank you so much for your contributions to this.

First of all, of course there are people who make excuses for not working out.  It is obviously not important to them, and when and if it is, the excuses will fall away.  Personally, I don't need to point that out to them, the fact that I fit working out into the crazy life of a professional single mom will hopefully inspire when the time comes.

But on the issue of weight loss:

After years and years of working and participating in and around the fitness industry, it is obvious to me that the "math"  of obesity is over simplified, and also not a comprehensive way of understanding the issues that contribute to obesity.  Jonniker's glimpses into OA show that the mental side of weight control can be very difficult to understand and manage.  Others have contributed their stories on physical challenges.  And let's put aside for a moment the fact that even the nutrition industry has radical disagreements on what constitutes a healthy diet (Low -fat?  Low-glycemic?  Vegetarian?  grains or no grains?  etc.)

I want to substitute the question of "why are you fat?" with "Why does my son get bad grades?".  He is a very, very smart kid who tests in the "superior" range on intelligence tests.  But starting in the 5th grade, his grades took a nose dive.  He cannot manage his homework.  I have tried everything as a parent, punishing, encouraging, micro managing, allow him to fail, working with his teachers, working with the school...really EVERYTHING.

He's now a high school sophomore, and this year the behavior problems started in earnest, truancy, smoking pot, graffiti, shoplifting, etc.  When I asked him why he's been cutting, the answer "because sometimes I just hate myself." Of course, I had to do something.

He is a good kid.  He wants to do well.  He is failing.  I love him more than anything.  So I was forced to put my own ideas, prejudices and judgments aside and take a closer look at what was going on with him. Long story short, he probably has ADD he is in a big (though very good) academic public high school.  While his test scores are consistently high, he gets bad grades because he misses homework, doesn't get assignments, doesn't turn stuff in, etc.  His school has an assembly line, pen to paper approach that, guess what? DOESN"T WORK FOR EVERYBODY.  The decline in his grades happened the year there were no longer class size mandates, class sizes went from 20 to 40 kids.

Meanwhile, he's been enrolled in an Independent Learning Program at a private school for one class and is getting a high A in a math class that is taught by the hardest teacher in the school, but is taught on a one on one student to teacher ratio.  So we will be transferring him to that school full time.

He told me that he feels like he failed at the public school (which he is very torn about leaving because all of his friends are there).  I explained to him what I have really come to believe:  his school failed him.  Not everyone learns the same way.  If some people are born with blond hair and some are born with brown hair, it stands to reason that people are born with different learning styles.

Looking at him from the outside, it's easy to believe that he is a slacker, a lazy and indifferent kid.  I believed that for a long time.  More importantly he also believed it, hence the self-destructive behavior. Sound familiar?

What do I believe now?  I believe that he will never do well in a class with 40 kids.  Could he have done better at the public school?  yes, but it WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH HARDER FOR HIM than it is for a lot of other kids.  

Here it is:  IT IS MUCH HARDER FOR SOME PEOPLE TO LOSE WEIGHT THAN OTHERS.  Just  because it is hard for you don't assume that it is not HARDER for someone else.  If some people are born with blond hair and some are born with brown hair, it stands to reason that people are born with different abilities to maintain a certain size. You don't know what you think you know about other people.  When I see the judgments that people make about my kid it breaks my heart.  The fact that I made them too will haunt me forever.  

Which brings me to my double amen on Starrlife's post.  This whole conversation stacks women up against an ideal, whether you want to call it "skinny" or "normal weight" or "fit" or "healthy".  I think we should all practice leaving each woman to her own definition of her ideal for herself.  We do not know what road she has had to travel.  And our own ideas about where she should be striving to go cause real pain.  It is now my practice to assume that she has done the best she can, but to lend support to her in any efforts she chooses to make to improve herself on her terms.

Leigh

12/30/2009 9:39:36 AM #

I wanted to add a couple of things, having kept up on all these fascinating comments.

I made what I think was the first "it's mathematics" comment (eat less, move more). Given all I've read so far, I'll concede that was overly flip and generalized, and only relevant for some people. I still believe it's a fair truth for plenty of people but by stating it the way I did, I shrugged off the complexity of many circumstances. I didn't mean to do that. Just wanted to acknowledge that.

I loved Leigh's comment for bringing up the effect of exercise on depression and anxiety and general well-being. I sit here so often just.... twitching. Fucking twitching. Emotionally, physically. Never feeling like I can get a full and satisfying breath because of this weight on my chest, because that's how stress manifests for me.

I need to move more because I need to feel more invigorated. I love feeling like a shitkicker more than I can't stand exercise. It makes me feel prepared. It knocks me out at night, and soundly too. I've got to get back at it. Something, if nothing else, to stick it to my husband who thinks I'm a hopeless nerd.

And so clearly thanks to Leigh I have uncovered why we're all here. TO CHANGE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK OF US. Oh yeah.

Kate
Zen Buddhist Genius

sweetsalty kate

12/30/2009 9:41:00 AM #

I receive a newsletter from Dr. Gabe Mirkin, an American MD who specializes in treating Diabetes and arthritis. He's credible and widely respected.  He's also at the top of his game as far as research and treatment options are concerned. (He's also over 70 and an athlete, btw.)

Here's what he sent today:

Almost All Obese Men Will Eventually Become Diabetic

  This month, two studies show that being overweight shortens life.  A study from the University of Uppsala in Sweden followed 1800 Swedish overweight men, from age 50 for 30 years and showed that almost all are at high risk for heart attacks and premature death (Circulation, December 2009).  The authors showed that overweight men who originally did not have metabolic syndrome eventually suffered from metabolic syndrome, diabetes and heart attacks.  

         Metabolic syndrome is considered to be early diabetes and includes high blood sugar and triglycerides, high blood pressure, low good HDL cholesterol, and abdominal obesity (40 inches for men,
35 for women).  In this study, being overweight without metabolic syndrome increased heart attack rate by more than 95 percent, and being verweight with metabolic syndrome increased the rate by more than 155 percent.

  In another study, researchers at the University of Bristol in the UK and the Karolinska Institute in Sweden analyzed more than a million Swedish mother-son and father-son pairs over age 50.  They showed that the sons who were overweight tended to have parents who had died prematurely and had an extremely high incidence of heart attacks, diabetes, and some cancers (British Medical Journal, January, 2010).  

  Fat cells are like endocrine glands. As they fill with fat, they release hormones that turn on your immunity to cause inflammation.  An overactive immunity damages artery walls to cause heart attacks and strokes.  High blood fat levels block insulin receptors so your cells cannot respond to insulin and your blood sugar levels rise too high.  This causes sugar to stick to cell membranes to damage arteries to cause heart attacks and strokes.  Since your insulin receptors are blocked, your pancreas releases increasing amounts of insulin which constricts arteries to cause heart attacks.

  Storing fat primarily in your belly rather than in your hips means that you already have high insulin levels, which shortens lives and increases heart attack risk.  Insulin specifically causes fat to be stored in your belly.  

  If you can pinch more than an inch of fat in your belly, you are overweight and at increased risk for metabolic syndrome, diabetes, heart attacks, and premature death.  You should first be cleared by your doctor for exercise and try to exercise every day.  

Avoid all foods that cause a high rise in blood sugar, particularly sugared drinks, foods made from flour, and sugar-added foods.  Eat large amounts of vegetables. Avoid red meat, lose weight, and make sure that your vitamin D3 level is above 75 nmol/L.




Lesley

12/30/2009 12:09:04 PM #

I have a thought about the "it's genetic" assertion and am curious what other people think about this.  If the weight problems that so many americans have was genetic, wouldn't our (most of our) close genetic relations in Europe have the same weight problems?  Could our genes possibly have changed so much in the 3 or 4 generations since most of our families arrived here?

I lived in England for a couple of years for work and was struck by how few really overweight people there were.  Same observation from business trips to other european countries.  I'm not a scientist, but am skeptical about how much could have changed in just a few generations.  

Sorry if someone already brought this up and I missed it...

Kira

12/30/2009 12:10:48 PM #

Damnit, Leigh, do you have a blog?? I'd love to read it. An awesome example. (If you do and wouldn't mind sharing, drop me a line at jessalogic@yahoo.com - thank you!)


I'm really learning a lot in this discussion.

daysgoby

12/30/2009 12:35:43 PM #

First, I would like to thank jonniker for mentioning many things than ran through my mind as I read the above post, and Swistle's.

Food is a very emotional topic for me as there have been many times both as a child and as an adult when I haven't had enough to eat. I know first hand the pain of only having enough money to keep a roof over our heads, and nothing more. I know what it's like to have to go to food banks and ask for food boxes. I've lived without utilities.

As I've grown older I have done my best to give back in thanks for the food we received in our times of need. I have volunteered at soup kitchens and food box packing sites.
One thing I learned rather quickly when I was distributing food to those in need is that often times those people were living without water and/or electricity. They had no way to cook, something a lot of us take for granted. Preparing a box for a homeless family is another lesson I learned. What healthy foods can I give them that they can eat without cooking? Most of them don't even have a can opener, or utensils. It has really opened my eyes to food in a new way.

There are many skills that I have been lucky enough to learn over my lifetime, canning, sprouting,dehydrating, cooking dry beans, making soups and stocks, bread baking etc. These methods of food preparation and food preservation have been largely lost as society met the TV dinner and the microwave. I would love to be able to start classes to teach others how to cook whole foods. I am currently looking for a commercial kitchen I can use.

Another reason that food is such an emotional issue for me is because it hurts to be fat. I spent many years sick with depression and anxiety hiding myself in my home. The years that I worked I worked as a pastry chef/ artisan bread baker. I injured my back working in such high volume production and was told by several doctors that I required surgery or I'd end up in a wheelchair.  Earlier this year I checked myself into a psychiatric facility for depression and anxiety. I was able to learn that having gone hungry so many times had altered my relationship with food. I figured out that having been molested as a child had led me to eat not only for comfort, but to stay overweight so that I would remain in a shape that society deems as less desirable. My layers of fat were my protection. Fat equaled safe. I began seeing a physical therapist who has taught me exercises that I can do with my injured back. I am slowly feeling my strength return and my mood elevate.

I was fortunate to have health insurance to get me through 2009. Many are not so lucky. I lost 18 lbs. this year. I haven't spent a lot of time with the scale but I did weigh myself today. For me the shift is not measured in lbs., but in the fact that I am learning to care enough about myself to take care of the body I have. This is my wish for others. Learn to take care of yourself, you are worth it.

One last statement I would like to add is that if any of you are in a position to help a local food bank with donations of food, money, or time please do so. The need at this time is so great and resources are so limited.
                                                                                                     Tammy

Tammy

12/30/2009 12:46:51 PM #

Thanks Leigh- It's nice to know someone read a comment of mine! No hate mail so far....  I know that there are women who could be losing weight but don't do what they should. How many people can do exactly what they should- vices/vulnerabilities have a way of popping out in other places when you try to corral them? But I hate the "oprahization" of the world where it is all about self improvement 24-7. It is boring, elitist and shame inducing as if the ones who just live, let some fat hang over their belt unselfconsciously and are content are weak, lazy and to be chastised until they get in line with the other ducks. I love the book "A Bad Case of the Stripes". It applauds finding the beat of your own personal drummer- fat, skinny, unkempt or Armani dressed, competitive, hard bodied or soft. Sigh...

starrlife

12/30/2009 1:41:35 PM #

Well put.  I completely agree with you, but as you said, I'm full of excuses or fall of the proverbial wagon. Frown I am definitely fatskinny.
Biggest Loser (which I love) is the perfect example of people who think it is hopeless but with help and a shift in thinking they prove you can change yourself.

Amanda

12/30/2009 2:02:53 PM #

Kira,

The issue of the fattening of America is a different issue than the notion that it is harder for some people to get lean than others.

It can be harder for an individual to be lean for many reasons, "genetics" being only part of the picture.   There are emotional reasons (childhood sexual trauma is a common reason), physiological reasons (the laying down of fat cells, particularly in the teenaged years influences your "setpoint", the amount of fat your body prefers to carry), hormonal reasons (cortisol from stress favors the storage of fat, a lack of leptin release from strict dieting interferes with the body's ability to burn fat, etc.), individual cultural reasons (how food is used in a family: to sooth, to show love, etc.), economic reasons, (Tammy said it perfectly above).  I could go on.  But really all you need to remember is that it's a lot harder for some people to get lean than others.  

The fattening of America is a broader cultural issue.  Though the U.S. seems to be leading this trend, Europe, Asia and Africa are also getting fatter, btw.  There are many theories as to why this is.  First, it correlates with urbanization.  We move less in cities than in rural areas and, as I noted above, the amount you move about in a day just living (look up NEAT) has a more profound effect on your metabolism than structured exercise, unless you exercise a whole lot.  This makes sense.  There has also been an uptake in our sugar consumption on the heels of the "low fat" revolution of the 80s.  As fat was taken out of food, high fructose corn syrup was added in.  This has an effect on insulin and the storage of fat.  There is a movement back towards a higher fat (monounsaturated), lower carbohydrate diet.  This is controversial.  There is the super-sizing of our portions.   There is the fact that it is very, very expensive to live only on unprocessed foods.  There is the fact that we don't get enough sunlight anymore and are vitamin D deficient.  There is the fact that we don't cook our own food and control our ingredients.  (read "the Omnivore's Dilemma") And a whole host of other factors from the increasing isolation and alienation of individuals in our society, to the breakdown of the nuclear family, to women's lib (kidding on those last two..)  But really, no one has a complete handle on why America keeps getting fatter because it is for so many reasons.

Leigh

12/30/2009 2:06:22 PM #

Starlife, taking the words self improvement out of the popular cultural context - which admittedly can be somewhat nauseating - but just taking the idea of bettering oneself in life... How is that shame inducing?

In every example I can think of in my own life where I've stepped up to a plate (i.e. done something I didn't think I could do, overcome an obstacle, a fear, a challenge, etc) shame isn't a part of any of it.  Just the opposite. I feel proud and more empowered and capable.

When our kids achieve something, what do we do? Applaud them, encourage them on?  We don't shame them or make them feel ashamed, right?

I guess I'm not understanding this whole shame thing... it sounds like a projection of a person feeling shame, not a person being shamed.

Lesley

12/30/2009 2:45:49 PM #

You have met me. You know what I looked like. And I'm sorry, my dear, but even when I was counting every small calorie and running 8 miles at a time, I did not lose weight. Not a shred. My doctor refused to listen to my complaints, every single year at my physical, that I was tired, over-fatigued, overweight, and though I was participating in exercise and calorie restriction the way I was told I was supposed to do, nothing worked.

He didn't listen to me/believe me, and probably nobody in my life did. Not even my running partner. I am sure that everyone thought I was binge eating in my private moments. I wasn't, but who would believe it when I was a size 20? It was easy to put my weight down to laziness or a change in metabolism due to having three kids or to being over 30 (I am 40 now). More importantly, because I was active, my doctor wasn't worried about my weight, though I had significant concerns about heart disease and Type II Diabetes (compounded when my son was diagnosed last year with Juvenile Diabetes).

Until last summer. My ob-gyn finally sat and listened to me. She asked me what kind of anti-depressant I have been on for the past 7 years, the entire time I have been overweight. Celexa. She shook her head immediately, and changed my over to prozac and wellbutrin, combined.

The next day, I flew out to stay with my parents for 10 days to help out after my dad had a triple by-pass. I noticed that in the airport, I felt slightly buoyant, though I was, in fact, resentful of my trip, because I had already spent 10 days out there that month (with only a week to fly home and get my kids off to school and have my annual pap exam).

I lost ten pounds in ten days. I started to lose weight as soon as I stopped taking the Celexa.

Since August, I have gone from a size 20 to now a size 14. I am heading for a 12, which is a weight I feel good at and can maintain. If I lose more than that, fine. It's a gift. I had stopped running because I hurt my foot on the treadmill a year go, but with my weight loss, I tentatively began again. And you know what? It's easier when you weigh less.

I am still running nearly daily, and training for a half-marathon in July. I have not consciously changed my eating habits to lose this weight, and I am convinced that I have NOT lost weight because of running. I love running, though, and I am sure I have shaved ten minutes off my 3-mile time because of the weight I have lost. I am faster, stronger, and I can run in 15-degree weather in 4 inches of snow.

However, I repeat: This is a gift I have been given. At age 40, I look and feel better than I did almost my entire decade of being in my thirties. And it's because I stopped taking one pill and started taking two others. It's that simple. I don't want to take it for granted and abuse this weight loss by not exercising or trying to take care of myself-- but my eating habits weren't bad before, so they didn't need much change.

My own experience has opened my eyes to the horrifying possibility that thyroid issues, medications, and other factors apart from genes can prevent both men and women from losing weight. I am both thrilled and horrified that I could lose so much weight SO FAST because of my anti-depressant. I am pissed at my doctor and the 7 years that I started to doubt my own ability to take care of myself, because none of my actions resulted in... anything.

I think you and Corey are definitely aiming for a much lower body-fat percentage and much more chiseled look than I am probably going for. However, I feel that now that the celexa is not working against me, I *could* possibly go after that kind of body. I wonder what changes I will see when I have upped my mileage this spring.

So, I'm calling bullshit on your calling bullshit: What works for you and other people (Sundry included) simply does not work for everyone. And it's bullshit to assume that people are overweight because they have been eating cheesecake or not exercising. And my heart breaks for the other women like me who were on the verge of starving themselves to lose weight and (I'm really not trying to be harsh) have to endure posts like this that only serve to make them feel more defeated and worse about themselves.

What works for you works for you. But it's ridiculous to think there is a formula that works for everyone. It's simply not true.

I have written about this elsewhere (footofstairs.blogspot.com/.../...eight-missy.html) and posted pictures to boot (www.facebook.com/album.php (I am now almost two sizes smaller than I was when I took my "after" pics for this album).

People: Talk to your doctors and if they do not listen, demand that they help you or find someone who will.

Jen

12/30/2009 7:00:58 PM #

Jen, you must have missed this bit

         "(barring a medical condition, which I acknowledge)".

Googling "side effects of Celexia" reveals weight gain, among other things.   Google can be our friend.

Lesley

12/30/2009 7:31:03 PM #

Wow.  What a lot of exquisitely expressed insights, here.  And Suebob, you are hilarious!  

I think what Kristin and Sundry really want to do is "call bullshit" on excuses.  I think they have set good examples by calling bullshit on themselves.  I think they want to inspire others to call bullshit on themselves, when they let their own excuses limit their lives.  

It's tempting to think of ourselves as authorities on success when we have experienced it through hard work, but that's probably a little shortsighted.  We cannot look at others, for example, and know whether they look the way they do because of excuses or because of factors beyond their control...or some of both.  

That's no reason to quit "calling bullshit", but I guess it should probably be reserved for our own bullshit.  

That brings me to something I've been wondering about lately...what is pride?  Satisfaction we take in moving toward a goal?  A feeling of superiority?  Or some confusing mixture?  It can be difficult to interpret expressions of pride.  Sometimes when I read blog entries, I am moved by writers' personal victories.  On the other hand, when I see pictures posted by the authors of their own "hot" bodies, along with comments about getting ripped, etc., it is hard not to infer that looks are important to them, and that they see themselves as winning the "looks" contest humans can't seem to do without.  Comments like, "Lady, you have one hot body," seem to be invited by pictures like that.  

Sometimes I think, hell, it's a human need to be acknowledged for our accomplishments and gifts, and we all invite positive messages in all of our interactions with each other all the time...this is no different.  But sometimes I think, listen, anything that puts us on the win-lose spectrum stinks.  I guess more than anything, what this brings up for me is that I feel hopelessly chained to the win-lose machine, myself, and I don't really know what to do about it.  Maybe gratitude for our health and blessings is the only thing that will get us off the never-ending wheel of have and have-not.  

Kim

12/30/2009 7:31:52 PM #

Wow, Lesley.  Dismiss her entire, heart-wrenching story just for the little lift you get from making someone feel dumb?  Why would you do that?
The more stories people share here, the more obvious it becomes that "(barring a medical condition)" covers WAY more people than some realize.

St

12/31/2009 2:37:43 AM #

I'm normally just a lurker on almost all blogs, but I read Switsle, Sundry, Better Now and Bodies in Motivation faithfully. I read these comments last night before bed, and woke up in the middle of the night thinking about them. I'd like to echo what Jen said above -- "What works for you and other people (Sundry included) simply does not work for everyone."

You guys clearly love adrenaline, and challenge, and that's great! I love reading about it! BUT. That's not me. That will never be me. (My brother who races cars on the weekend got all the adrenaline-loving genes in our family.) I don't enjoy pushing myself out of my comfort zone. Bill Gates doesn't have enough money for me to  try skiing or snowboarding down our little local ski hill. I get nervous when my son goes sledding. And I know this, and that's okay with me. It's who I am. I felt like that is what Switsle was trying to say -- she knows who she is, and just wants people not to judge her for it. This ... feels like judgement. Not just of her, but of all of us who don't get a high from physically pushing ourselves to the limits.

For a different example, I have a phd in physics, which many people think they could never do. Sure I had to work at it, and it involved alot of grunting and sacrificing Smile but I could do it and I'm proud that I could. Should I expect that everyone can do it just because I could? They just need to apply themselves and work harder? No, other people don't get excited about equations, and aligning lasers all night. It's not that more people couldn't do it, they just don't choose to. And that's okay. I think extreme fitness is the same. It's your passion.

"Being the strongest, fittest, most capable me involves a lot of grunting, whinging, and sacrificing.  And it's totally worth it and you can do it too. "  It's worth it to you. But to me, maybe it isn't worth it. And that should be okay too.

NM Liz

12/31/2009 5:28:02 AM #

One of the reasons I so enjoy reading both you and Sundry, is because you tell the story of your journey so honestly. You are the only one capable of telling it and in doing so, you have clearly inspired so many others to follow your path. That's an amazing accomplishment and you have every reason to be proud of yourself for getting into better shape and getting others to follow.

I believe you when you say it's what you believe. And that's fine. And while I totally understand the point you're trying to make--we all make too many excuses and we can make the decision to make changes in our lives--I hope you can understand that you can't know why I've been overweight my whole life until you've run the 5K in my wide-foot sneakers and plus-size running pants. While I think most of us can agree that daily exercise is pretty fundamental to all things good health and that any advocacy for it should be celebrated, it's impossible for you to know what the effect it has on anyone else's body is. I don't eat processed foods, I eat more vegetables than you can imagine and I literally cannot remember the last time I ate a muffin. The lowest weight I have ever been in my adult life is 158 pounds and that was when I pretty much had given up on eating, REALLY. At 5'7'' that made me just at the top of the normal range.

To sum up my long-winded point: I think you're great. You've made great changes to your life and you're a godsend to so many readers who are living through crappy times to show them that times can change and that you can make those changes yourself. That is such a great message.

And running every day and eating healthily makes me FEEL great. Unfortunately, it does not make me a size six. Or even a size 10. I'm learning to be happy with being a size 12. I'm also trying to learn how not to speak for other people or tell anyone else that how they live their life or account for it is bullshitt.

CP

12/31/2009 9:40:56 AM #

I guess when I'm speaking of shame inducement I'm not talking about bettering oneself in general, just the idea that is held BY OTHERS for others that everyone should hold the same idea of what better is (sorry didn't mean to shout, just to make point).  Lesley- I agree with you generally- the key words that you use that make a difference to me is that it is something that you CHOOSE to do. Of course, many people want to enjoy bettering themselves (which implies they were worse BTW) but it is also okay to just be whoever you are without being implied to be lazy. Since I am the mother of a developmentally disabled child I am sensitive to being the best you can be without having to be measured always against others preconceived standards. It's the movement from personal pride to arrogance that demeans others.
Now, I don't think Kristen  that you are an arrogant person but you are riding the high, so well deserved and, rather like a new non-smoker, you seek to share your vision and new found set of skills with all with great zeal.  Which we all enjoy except when, if others do things differently they are made to feel less than. I love NMLiz's comment- we all do things that others can't possibly conceive of accomplishing- being fit and thin is only one type of accomplishment that people might value or have passion around.
I,myself, admit to being a very non-motivated person to have washboard abs- I hate physical pain and great physical effort that is too focused (borriiingg)- I've run miles at points (borriiinng) and I certainly could lose weight after gaining it in menopause (many of you may not have hit that little obstacle yet- is it considered a medical condition?). Yes- I've internalized the "I'm hot" pressure but I guess I can live with the self disappointment, lol. Right now in my life I have other values and challenges that I pursue avidly. But I do not put down those that do prefer to exercise to achieve their own personal goals, it's just not for me right now.

starrlife

12/31/2009 11:15:40 AM #

I do think your writing is less interesting now  you write a lot about fitness. The same is true for Sundry. That is because I do not share your interest there, and I do share your interest in being a mother. No big deal, I just skip the parts I do not relate to.
So why react to this post?

Because it riles me. I am overweight, and have been since I was about 13. This is for a big part related to a heart condition I had, which I had corrected with open heart surgery in 2003, when I was thirtyfour. In the mean time I kept gaining weight. Doctors assured me I could do sports with my heart, so when I failed to lose weight by exercising, it must be me right? I was doing it wrong somehow. Also, I do love to eat, and I started comfort eating about that time.

Then, when I started exercising after my operation, I found out what the difference was. Man, exercising felt really good! I could feel my body respond to it, and change. I never felt that before.  That also made it a lot easier to stop overeating. If you can see the difference between discipline and selfindulgence, you get to CHOOSE. And I went trough some major life changes, and lost a total of 20 kilo's.

I am still overweight. I do exercise, but the weight I gained in the time exercising couldn't work for me, is still there. And after all that time, it just takes too much time, energy, discipline and sacrifice to get to a point where I am good to look at. I just don't want to change my life that much. I am healthy now, I eat well and balanced, but I do sometimes indulge myself and eat something fatty, salty, bad for you but oh so good...

And that is what I don't like about your post. I am still about 40 kilo's overweight. And you, without knowing my history,  you tell me I have only myself to blame. I know you said something about medical conditions not counting, but you don't KNOW I had one of those, do you? Unless you see me in my bathing suit, grossly overweight, flabby because my skin doesn't fit me anymore (too big because I lost those 20 kg) and with a huge scar the length of my breastbone. Also, the varicose veins leftover from my pregnancy etc, etc.  

I do not have the right to judge you about how you feel about yourself. I respect your discipline in changing your body. But you never, ever should tell anybody they only have themselves to blame for their bodyshape.

I probably lost more weight than you ever will, and kept it succesfully away from my body. In some ways I look worse because I did that. (flabby skin swinging under my arms where there used to be fat, for example.) When somebody takes a picture of me, I see a very fat person smiling happily at the camera. And I still have to put in much the same work you do, just to look like somebody who only has herself to blame...

Miellyn

12/31/2009 11:32:36 AM #

I have lost 73 lbs in the past three years. I still have about 60 to go.

I was in the parking lot of the grocery store yesterday and was moo'd at by a grown man as he drove by, and told to "lay off the chips" (yes, oh horror of horrors, I bought 3 bags of chips for my daughter's New Year's Eve party). That man who doesn't know me, who doesn't know the work I have done, the hours spent in the gym, the struggle to walk for two and a half hours with my thighs rubbing together and blistering, the crying because I am in pain from hunger but have used up all my Weight Watchers' points, just saw me as another lazy fat woman who eats chips all day long.  And this post and some of its comments? Made me feel that way all over again.

Happy New Year, Kristin.



Nella

12/31/2009 12:43:56 PM #

I'm not speaking for Kristin, obviously, but when I agree with this post I agree with the spirit with which she wrote it. I believe her message was directed towards the people aren't happy with their fitness/health, who haven't really tried to change, yet throw up all kinds of excuses why they can't. There is a movement to talk a lot about why it's too hard to change, there so very many reasons why it's impossible, BMI is wrong, food is full of things that make us fat, there are new diseases, etc -- we should just accept and move on to more worthy topics. I feel uncomfortable with this position, but I think what I have learned from reading all these comments is that the problem with trying to reach out to the people who fall into the category of being capable of change but not being honest with themselves about the lifestyle choices they'll have to make in order to do so, we've offended a LOT of other people.

For my part, I'm very sorry for that. I'm coming around to Jonniker's point of view, which is that this whole thing is too complicated for one message to remain empowering, when it underscores so many people's efforts. That's too bad, because a simple, accessible message is often what a person needs when they're ready to make changes (I know that's what *I* need: someone to remind me that I CAN do it, even if it's freaking me out). But I understand why it's hurtful, and I'm sorry.

I hope everyone feels they have what they need to reach their goals, whatever they may be.

Sundry

12/31/2009 1:07:39 PM #

I think the thing about this message, following up on what Sundry just said, is that it's not just about the message being specific but also that the people who need to hear this message are not going to hear it this way.  I need this message and I get this message when I read your blog, Sundry.  I get this message when I watch Biggest Loser or when I read Amazing Trips.  
I do not get the message when it is phrased this way.  When it says, "Hey you, stop with the excuses and get off your ass"  Because here's the thing about that.  You can only say that to me if you KNOW ME.  If you don't know me you have NO business telling me that.  Lesley had commented over on Swistle's blog that Jillian said the same awful "pie plate" stuff on Biggest Loser.  The difference is?  They asked her to do it.  I ask her to every time I turn on one of her DVDs.  Assuming some fatty reading a blog wants YOUR help?  That's where it starts to sound like arrogance over pride.  
Be proud of your accomplishments.  I've never read this blog before but I've been following Sundry for a LONG time.  I love reading about how accomplished and strong she feels and it motivates me to get in shape.   I also loved Swistle's message acknowledging that body type and genetics does play into things.  It will be harder for me to get into shape than it was for Sundry, I'm carrying an extra 80#, I have plantar fasciitis and when my heart rate gets really high my throat closes up which tends to make my trainer very nervous!  This does not discount Sundry's hard work.  It's just different for everyone.  I can make good grades relatively easily but I still have to put in the work.  Someone else may struggle more with it.  Saying that it's harder for that person does not diminish the work I did.
I'm so glad things have been more civilized here.  You are all pretty freaking amazing.

St

12/31/2009 2:14:29 PM #

I completely agree!  My mother had a thin mother, yet constantly blamed fat genes for her morbid obesity. Could it have had more to do with three big bowls of cereal as a warm up to a breakfast that also had to include eggs and bacon? Maybe? And then once she got so big, she had a bear of a time moving her body around, so working out was next to impossible, and so and and so on. She died too young, too big, too painfully, you name it. It was a nightmare, and I do not intend to follow in her footsteps, genes or no. It is harder and more worthwhile to eat right and to exercise. And you are more interesting talking about it--forget what those nuts are talking about! Keep up the good work. You are inspiring.

angie

12/31/2009 2:19:33 PM #

Oh, Linda. I am practically all SNIFFLY over here, because that is a very big comment you just made, and I mean it in a "big, kind person" kind of way, not a BIG SIGNIFICANT or BIG BMI kind of way. (too soon?)

Happy New Year, ladies. Please know that not one whit of this takes a single thing away from what you've accomplished, which is effing huge and beyond admirable. I think another message that has been lost, that I have been meaning to post and that St brought up is that just because you (or me, or anyone) didn't have to overcome exceptional challenges like a large amount of weight to lose or daunting medical issues does not mean that what you have done wasn't hard and isn't amazing and worthy of celebration. It is. You are amazing, and you worked your ass off to get here, and yes, you should fucking revel in it.

jonniker

12/31/2009 2:22:07 PM #


@St: Thank you.

Jen

12/31/2009 2:24:27 PM #

If you want to encourage people to change, lead by example, and not platitudes. I love reading about what fitness bloggers have done. I love less being lectured about why I should do it too.

I credit Sundry with leading me to the realization that I needed to, and could, stop drinking. I have now been sober for four years. She did this not with boring "you can do it!" cheerleading, but just by chronicling her own journey. (Which, as I remember, was not without fits and starts.)

Thanks for this interesting discussion. I've been alternately disgusted and moved. Everyone's got his or her own journey to take. I wish people would respect that.

Jessica

12/31/2009 2:38:32 PM #

I've been at this stuff for a long time, including spending years as a personal trainer.  One of the most important things I have learned is to get off my soap box and just walk my walk.  It is not my job to strip adults of their excuses unless they've hired me to do so.  When they are ready for change and they ask me, I will help.  Until then, I hope I am setting an example and not adding to the chorus of judgment overweight people face everyday.

One thing that may not have been said yet is that I think it is very hard to understand the pain of being fat in our society unless you've been there.  Nella's post makes me want to cry, I remember every of of those comments I heard when I was fat.  Our society doesn't think twice about its prejudice and stereotyping of fat people. They are still the butt of ugly jokes on tv and in movies.  People feel entitled to make comments like the asshole in the parking lot made to Nella.  Compare that with how our society is at least trying to address its deep seated racism.

Every one of those comments makes you feel less than.

I've said my piece above about the value of a fit lifestyle.  After years of living this way and teaching others about health and nutrition I have has experienced the joy that comes from helping others to reach their potential.  And I call bull when necessary with my clients and fellow athletes.  But I am very very careful to act with compassion and to remember that my world of fitness is small.  And, actually, I think a more important part of my life's mission is to try and help change the way we view fat.  Because no one deserves to feel less than because of their size, and those of us who have worked hard to help people feel better physically should step on our tongues if our rhetoric ever hurts people by contributing to the discrimination people feel who have not chosen our path or who have and are less "successful by society's standards.

Linda and Kristin, both of you are shining examples of success.  That's enough.  And if either of you is going to make this your life's work, through these comments you have been giving a gift I wish I had when I started out.  I understand your motives are good.  But please take a deep breath and understand what you are hearing form the people who are hurt by this post.  It will make you a better trainer, coach, or mentor.

Here's how I think of it:  My place is to help people achieve goals and understand what they are capable of.  My place is never ever to tell people who haven't made the choice to change that they should.  If someone comes to you with a list of excuses why they "can't" be as gentle as possible when you let them know that when they make the decision to change they can, and you can help.

Leigh

12/31/2009 3:28:07 PM #

Leigh, I bet you are a great trainer.  My trainer is part of what gives me confidence to workout.  I'm very overweight now and it is HARD to go the gym because I get looks.  It is so hard to push past that feeling that you don't belong.  It SUCKS to be the one that stands out and to get the looks and to know what people think.  And they may not all be mean, sometimes they are thinking "Good for her!" Which is actually rather condescending.  Usually the looks are disgust on some level.  Being there with my trainer makes me feel like I belong.  Now, if I could only get enough money together to go back to her!

St

12/31/2009 3:29:13 PM #

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ispuddle.com

12/31/2009 3:35:36 PM #

Wow.  So - I am at Whistler today and don't have time at the moment to properly respond to this.  I will say: I understand and hear a lot of you.  And know what you are saying.

And Linda - you did speak for me, totally, in a better way than I could have.  Thank you.  I agree 100%

Kristin

12/31/2009 5:31:47 PM #

As a personal trainer, I've been watching this debate (and the one at swistle's) quietly, but with a lot of attention. I'm so glad to see Kristin and Sundry's latest comments, as it proves that listening and sensitivity are possibly in this tricky conversation.

It's hard to draw the lines between fitness and health and weight, but as a trainer it's a huge part of my job. The easiest (and admittedly, overly simplified) way I explain it to clients is that I'm not at all interested in how they look, I'm interested in what they are capable of. If the client wants to lose 10 lbs, or 50 lbs, that's their thing. My thing is to get them stronger, faster, and more proud of the capabilities of their bodies.

I became a trainer when I was diagnosed with MS, as I knew I only had a few years of full physical capabilities ahead of me. For me, the expansion of the bodies abilities is where the joy is- the joy that we all clearly see in Kristin and Sundry's posts. But I can tell you they would still feel that way, having achieved what they did, weighing 50 lbs more. I don't care that they are skinny, I care that they are strong-- that's what's really exciting to witness.

kathleen

12/31/2009 5:54:48 PM #

I've never viewed "skinny" as a goal, or washboard abs, though hell, washboard abs would rock. I just want to feel better and exercise has done that for me since the beginning.  I also like feeling my muscles hurt the next day, as crazy as that might sound. It tells me I've achieved something.

I remember being in Safeway one day feeling guilty about the croissants I was holding in the check out line and a very thin woman was standing in front of me holding a bag with two strawberries. Not two cartons of strawberries, just two strawberries.  I looked more closely and saw she was skeletal, the skinniest she could be.  

I can't tell you how much I enjoyed those croissants.  

Lesley

12/31/2009 6:06:21 PM #

@Sundy - reading your last comment made me think that there is a HUGE difference between "anyone can do it" (which get thrown around a lot, an not just about fitness - anyone can breastfeed, anyone can get higher education, anyone could do XXX if they just TRIED hard enough) and "You can do it" in response to a specific person or specific challenge (yes, you can sign up for adult swim lessons, or eat chicken thighs, or run a 5k, or push yourself outside of your comfort zone).  

I think that's getting tangled up in the entire debate.  I think everyone starts out from a place of sincerity and honesty and no one sets out to offend.  And maybe it's totally stupid to get wound up about word choices but we all do it.  And I think this entire comment thread has helped those on both sides of the debate "get" what the others are saying.

kakaty

12/31/2009 6:26:17 PM #

Love your last comment Sundry. Thanks all for listening and being respectful to all of our comments.

starrlife

12/31/2009 7:16:34 PM #

Kakaty: The chicken thighs were delicious, and if I may say so, your post made me not only nod in agreement, because: yes on the "you" vs "anyone, but I also laughed right fucking out loud. I did it! I CUT UP THE CHICKEN THIGHS. CHECK ONE OFF THE LIFE LIST. (I'm kind of not really kidding about that, which is quite sad. But ALL THOSE RECIPES! Now at my fingertips!)

jonniker

12/31/2009 7:42:05 PM #

Oh dear god, this discussion was just so personal and emotional and FUCKING civilized, I'm welling up over here.  Y'all are all pretty inspirational.

Noemi

12/31/2009 9:02:41 PM #

I have really enjoyed this conversation (and the one at Swistle's) and I feel like a lot of people made really reasonable, informed points. But. This post -- the one starting this portion of the conversation -- is not reasonable. And it is not informed. It's bull-headed, it's arrogant, and it was hurtful. I've read Kristin since before she was pregnant with Nolan. I have always cheered her on and encouraged her when things were hard and I never for a moment thought about judging any decision she made. So reading this blog post, after all this time, was particularly painful. When I read "My overweight friends and acquaintances all eat more junk food than I do", I thought, well, fortunately for all involved, you won't have overweight friends or acquaintances after they realize, like I have, that you're actually misinformed and happy to judge. Problem solved.

Kate

12/31/2009 10:40:24 PM #

Kate, I have learned a lot from this discussion.  I am angry at myself for thinking this was a pretty benign post and I am really sad to think I've come off as arrogant to so many people.  I have a lot to learn, and am eager to do so. It is obvious there is no rule applicable here, no umbrella, and I've learned a lot in this discussion.

I *do* think that sometimes excuses are made --I have no time, I hate to run, etc.  And I think maybe people sometimes pull out the "heavy gene" card when they don't need to.  I didn't mean to lump everyone into this, and like I said, I agree with every thing Sundry said in her last comment above.  

I am sorry your opinion of me changed so swiftly. :-(

kristind

12/31/2009 11:53:16 PM #

Kristin, no one is sorrier than I am that my opinion of you changed so swiftly. What I want to make perfectly clear is that I am not opposed to differing opinions. If you are reasonable and rational and kind in your decision to eat baby kittens for breakfast I will accept that. It's your life, not mine, and if eating baby kittens works for you I will not judge. I read the entire "fatskinny" debate at BIM and I was 100% on your side. What you said made sense. It was rational and honest and I completely related to it. So, in this case, it wasn't your stance or what you are doing for your particular life that bothered me -- it was the unkind and narrow-minded presentation of what you believed. And, of course, your insistence that what worked for you would absolutely work for everyone.

Kate

1/1/2010 12:44:59 AM #

I think when you craft a blog post, you don't always stop and consider all angles, and this is evidently what I should have done before I hit publish.  I have had a number of commenters and emailers, too, that said this post was a kick in the pants  that they needed: they were going to get off the couch and tie up their laces.  

THAT is more what I was trying to say here: You wanna to do it?  and you're healthy and you can afford a pair of running shoes?  Are you ready?  It's gonna hurt like hell, OK?  AWESOME.  You can totally do it.  

I thought, and still do believe, that a lot of North Americans are overweight due to lifestyle choices. I think there are many of us that could be more fit and want to be fit and are not because it's just easier sometimes to sit still then sprint.   I was certainly comfortable sitting, smoking, eating Doritos and gigantic meals.  But I like myself so much better now that I'm moving fast.  

I'm sorry if I came across as judgmental and narrow minded, God that was so not my intent. I've learned a lot from this, as said, and will be more careful in my choice of words in future, especially on such a landmine of an issue.

And also: I totally would judge someone who ate baby kittens.  And I wouldn't be that sorry for judging.

Kristin

1/1/2010 9:31:32 AM #

Well, everyone has opinions and you know what they say about that! I think debate is fine on sites and ultimately Kristen it is your blog post about you and whatever you would like to say. Don't back down on yourself! We can never please everyone and it is not a popularity contest (despite many of the structures of blogging around us). Many people would be happier if they did alot of things - and some people die young no matter how healthy they are, and some people are healthy and fit and beautiful and tortured souls (magazines and movies are full of these lovely, miserable "role models").
I appreciate the conversation, all of the opinions and thoughts and the wish for everyone to feel as happy as you are right now. I too would judge baby kitten eaters- off with their heads!

starrlife

1/1/2010 10:36:19 AM #

Of course many many more people could be more fit, could be less overweight, but if it was as easy as "Just do it", I'm thinking there wouldn't be so many of us who are overweight.  If it was easy as willpower to break the "lifestyle choices"....Well. I just think its far too easy to judge.  So many people I know who devote 95% of their brain to being skinny, and yet who aren't.

Billions of $ in the fat industry, and yet millions of very overweight. Of course, it must be becasue we are all lazy overeaters who just need to get off the couch.  There are many inspirtational stories of huge weight losses, people who 'just did it' by exercising and eating healthily.   But they seem to be far fewer than the stories of people who try many many tactics, and still are 'hugely' overweight.

And as for baby kittens, sure we'd judge (I would too of course)..but to be overly simplistic, you judge hearing the "he ate baby kittens".. but what about the story behind it, because he was a monster, because he thought it was funny, because he was starving, because his children were starving???

Aileen

1/1/2010 1:08:20 PM #

I didn't read all the previous comments, but I agree with you on most parts. I think that genes play a large part in things, but size (I'm talking large bones here, not fat) has little to do with fitness level. You don't have to be a size 4 to be fit.
As far as the excuses go, everyone has a million. I mostly hear,  "I just don't *like* working out." Uhhhh, NO ONE does. It's hard, it hurts. It's not a hobby that you either enjoy or don't, it's something you do to make yourself better.
I ran a marathon this past fall (and also write at Bodies - Blood, Sweat and Sneakers) and I swear it was an equal challenge mentally and physically. But I'm more confident now in my ability to do things.
And I agree with you, that most people who are overweight don't need to be.

Kaitlyn

1/1/2010 11:21:03 PM #

My view of the problem here is Kristin's application of her experience to everyone.  Had the post been all about her, how calling herself on her bullshit worked for her, etc that would've been a hell of a lot different than 'here's what I did, and it will undoubtedly work for you unless you're sick'.  Great intentions in the post, no question - just with a bit of ignorance.

jane

1/2/2010 12:14:23 AM #

The tiptoeing you have to do lest you offend or cause fainting spells in women's blogs IS EXAUSTING. No wonder men tune out.  






Lesley

1/2/2010 12:15:48 AM #

The snide comments from women to other women probably doesn't help.

St

1/2/2010 1:34:27 AM #

LOL! Oh, Lesley, I don't think you're going to find much of an audience of men in the women's blogging circuit.

However, I am deeply offended by the discussion of baby kittens, because the whole reason I am overweight is because I am subsisting only on baby kittens because of a HEALTH PROBLEM that dictates that I am allergic to EVERY OTHER KIND OF MEAT and YOU BITCHES JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE ME, WITH THIS ALLERGY. GOD.

jonniker

1/2/2010 1:54:15 AM #

This is perhaps a little unrelated to the post bu is something that I feels can add another dimension to this discussion. I would like to give my excuse for not working out as much as I should and for not eating as well as I should, it is the the real reason that I don't do these things and I think perhaps others peoples reasons as well. It is fear. Fear that no matter what I do in this regard I will never look the way I want to, never feel the way I want to and that other fear that I won't be able to, the fear of failure. My fear disguises it self as apathy and laziness. I also don't want to give up the things I really enjoy (beer and ice cream come to mind) What I am trying to illustrate here is that reasons for not trying to lose weight can be bigger and harder to deal with than laziness I motivate myself easily in many other areas of my life but fear and anxiety hold me back in this.

Allysa

1/2/2010 2:07:38 AM #

People, I am going to leave this post and move on to fresh things -- but, I wanted to clarify my comment above.  I knew this post would rankle -- anything uncomfortable does.  But I did not know I would hurt so many people -  so many friends, really, and that I truly regret.


Allysa, that fear question is a good one and I experienced it a little bit too - maybe a good next discussion.

Kristin

1/2/2010 2:15:52 AM #

Allysa, I think that emotionally, this is EXACTLY true for me.  I watched my mother struggle her whole life trying to lose weight.  She exercised all the time, I can even remember the nursery at the Y.  She used whole foods, she shopped local health food stores. I grew up on organic cream of wheat with carob chips!  But she hasn't won that battle yet and deep down I am CONVINCED I won't either.

St

1/2/2010 2:51:52 AM #

Kristin,

Moving on to fresh things?  I can't imagine why.  I'm glad we had this discussion.  I really, really benefit from taking a look at some of these things that make me uncomfortable, so thanks for starting this dialogue.

Allysa,

I think your experience is VERY common and I'm surprised no one else raised it.  Fear is a biggie for me, in working out (and especially competing) and also in the rest of my life.  

Leigh

1/2/2010 6:20:35 PM #

Fantastic post! Thanks for taking a stand and speaking up. Maintaining healthy weight is a matter of balancing diet and exercise. Calories in = calories out to maintain weight, calories in < calories out to lose weight.

Yes, some people have slower metabolisms than others. That is the root of the genetics argument. But those people then need to eat less because they require less calories, exercise more because they are consuming more calories than they require, or both (preferred). A genetically slow metabolism is not an excuse for being overweight - it's a reason to be even more diligent watching what you eat, and more diligent exercising to raise your metabolic rate.

Evhen

1/2/2010 6:38:00 PM #

Ok, but still, that was a record stretch without extreme snarkiness....

Leigh

1/2/2010 8:57:17 PM #

Coming back to this, I'll add that scientists have found "fat" genes, the genetic argument isn't entirely bullshit.   It CAN be genetically really difficult for people to lose weight.   There are several genes that they believe are responsible.   One of them, I believe, prevents people from feeling full, and there are others that dictate how quickly you metabolize food.   And, of course, there are the genes responsible for how your body responds to exercise in terms of body-type.   Not everyone can achieve a "ripped" body if they don't have that genetic predisposition.   So, there's that.

A lot of people who are hyper-fit are also motivated by fear:  fear that if they don't look a certain way, they'll be rejected;  fear that without a perfect body, they aren't good enough; and of course, the flip side, which is fear that if/when they've achieved this nirvana of "perfection" that they still won't be happy, and then what?    Or that with the perfect body, people will have different expectations of them.   I'm sure there are a million ways to look at it.

Karen

1/2/2010 11:12:26 PM #

Strippers!

BHJ

1/3/2010 1:56:03 AM #

Well, I know my comment is late to the party even though I read your post right after you posted it. I needed to take it in, breathe and come back. I've skimmed all your comments and I realize that you've moved on but I feel like I need to tell you how it made me feel.

I love you dearly Kristin. I really do. But your post hurt me and while I know you wouldn't want it to, it did. I have so many issues with my weight. And said weight has always yo-yoed. I have a pretty poor body image and in situations like October when I met you and Stacy for the first time, I felt shy and self conscious about what you two wonderbodies would think of me and my less that attractive chub.

The reasonable side of me knows that you like me for who I am and probably didn't think too much of my obesity when I met you but when you write a post like this it just makes the self-hating side of me feel awful and that perhaps you thought to yourself that I do nothing all day aside from sitting on the couch eating bonbons.

I admit, I need exercise. I admit, I have a good deal of weight to lose. I have hormonal issues that can make losing weight difficult but it's not impossible. And I plan to take the bull by the horns and do so.

But still. I just wanted you to know how I feel. At the end of the day I still love you and will still read you with utter devotion.

Sky

1/3/2010 7:43:57 AM #

Living healthfully should be the focus for each and every one of us.  The debate about skinnys not understanding the fats is silly and a distraction from the root issue.  So is the big is beautiful movement.  Early tobacco ads promoted smoking as healthy.  Promoting big as beautiful as a self-acceptance tactic masks the many serious and often deadly, and without question expensive, outcomes of being obese.  Forcing people to accept as "ok", even to celebrate, a health condition that is demonstrably unhealthy is political correctness gone too far.

Obesity IS on the rise around the globe. There are many contributory causes.  There are many solutions, from choices to surgical options.  But it ultimately comes down to individual choices.  Jared the Subway guy made a set of individual choices and created a routine that helped him become a healthier, and wealthier, individual.  We should support anyone who wants to make healthful changes.  If an overweight person who really wanted to lose weight came to live with me, they'd quickly see that my height proportional weight comes from a series of daily choices about exercise and diet, not genetics.
    
Making healthy lifestyle choices requires making choices every single day, choices to eat well-balanced meals, make sure we do not eat more than appropriate portion sizes, get regular physical exercise, exercise our brains, avoid substituting cigarettes, alcohol, drugs for self-acceptance, find positive alternative outlets for emotions to avoid stress and anger, etc.  They are not easy choices, they require work and planning and discipline, but they become easier with practice and commitment and reinforcement.

akl

1/4/2010 9:34:03 PM #

Oh dear lord.  So-- expecting another wave of chaos due to Mimi Smartypants blog post.  

I adore Mimi, she is whip smart and funny as all hell but she can't possibly have known I am self conscious about *everything*.  

I am self conscious about my giantness, my ugly feet, my man-nose, my mouse voice.  I am mostly socially inept (which is why I am a blogger!)   The paragraph about being confident in my skin: getting into bed and at the pool is more a commentary on how being fit makes me feel (unselfconscious) than a commentary on what everyone should or shouldn't be doing in their own beds and pools.

kristind

1/4/2010 10:37:36 PM #

Yeah, and the bit about feeling strong and healthy = awesome. But the first part made me say, "oy." It's probably just a case of unclear blogging (which we've all been guilty of), but it totally sounded like not being fit = shameful, and fitness = confidence, which is in direct contradiction to what you've posted above (about being self-conscious about everything). Because if being fit made one get over oneself, the man-nose and giantness wouldn't be issues either, right?

Anyway, it's not an attack. I'm not even talking about weight or fitness here. I'm talking about the fact that confidence is a choice. And that it comes at every size. Not being able to have fun at the pool because of body confidence is a much worse issue than a few extra pounds.

And sorry to re-open old cesspools, but it bugged me for a few days and I figured I'd clutter up my own space rather than start the comments train a-rolling again.

mimi smartypants

1/4/2010 10:39:19 PM #

Uh, not that you actually *do* have man-nose. You know what I mean. You are a giant, but then again everyone is a giant to me.

mimi smartypants

1/4/2010 11:32:49 PM #

I've read every single comment and I have to say that all of you have expressed yourselves eloquently and intelligently. It's been an informative pleasure, ladies, well played.

Be that as it may. I'll be brief here because I'm furious and I suspect I should just go away and leave it alone, but quoting this segment from the original post:

"Yeah, Heidi Kum [sic] loses her pregnancy weight in a freakishly short period of time.  But <b>I would bet my left arm</b> that she worked ridiculously hard and ate very consciously in order to snap back like that.  And for sure: Kate Moss doesn't exercise and she's skinny as hell.  But <b>I bet</b> she's not fit.  And <b>I'd wager</b> she doesn't spend a lot of time eating, either.  Not good." (emphasis mine)

Kristin, I can't get over the fact that you seriously based your entire oversimplified, soapbox argument on examples that YOU GUESS are true.

I'm so unbelievably saddened that you seriously and truly feel like you crafted a valid argument.

Sophia

1/4/2010 11:58:05 PM #

While I don't necessarily disagree with the substance of the post, it does seem as though there's a frustrating conflation of "fit" and "physically attractive," a term that is itself often taken to be interchangeable with "thin."  This confusion of terms becomes - for me - problematic when coupled with an otherwise admirable can-do sentiment because it sets up so many for unnecessary disappointment and self-loathing.  "I can do..." what, precisely?

I love my mother.  She does yoga.  She walks.  She eats well.  She is, for her age, in remarkably good health and probably far fitter than me.  This matters not a whit because for all her positivity and commitement to sensible diet and exercise, she's still "fat" by the standards of the culture.  She's "fat" because she carried, bore and raised me.  She's "fat" because her German ancestors were compact and muscular rather than long-boned.  She's "fat" because her pants always need to be nipped in at the waist or let out in the hips.  She's "fat" because in the endless shrieking about an obseity crisis, poor diet and laziness it we have somehow lost the ability to think critically about what we as individuals and a larger social group may be bringing to the table in our discussions of weight, health and how these unexamined assumptions color exchanges such as this one.

So I suppose my question is this:  My mother can do it.  She did it.  She taught me to do it, and so I do.  And on good days she doesn't blame herself for the fact that she her efforts have "failed" because she doesn't look the way she's "supposed to look"  nevermind her excellent blood pressure and increased energy levels.  That's not enough.  So now what?

Laura

1/5/2010 2:21:56 AM #

Eating healthily requires some planning, but it's no more expensive than subsisting on nachos, white chocolate macadamia nut cookies and and coffee.

That's a pretty economically privileged way of looking at the world. Generally speaking, there's a higher cost per healthy calorie (see "A High Price for Healthy Food," NYT, Dec 5, 2007 or "Healthy, Low-Calorie Foods Cost More Than Average," USDA, March 19, 2008) and there are plenty of American neighborhoods where reasonably-priced, decent produce is not an option because there is no competitive grocery landscape.

If you're a middle-class North American, you certainly have the latitude to adjust your grocery budget, and you likely have the time, transit and storage space required to keep healthy food costs down via comparison shopping.

And if you're a middle-class North American, you probably also have the safe or walkable neighborhoods and parks that contribute to cheap and perambulatory fitness. Or you live someplace with enough space to afford your Wii Fit workouts and your at-home exercise equipment. Or you have the luxury of controlling enough of your time so you can make that workout part of your everyday routine.

Posts like this, with their implicit assumptions about people's circumstances and attendant implicit judgments about how people choose to spend their time and money, do a great job of illustrating how internalized the attitude that economic strata is interchangeable with personal characteristics. And they fail to examine how a lot of American commercial and civic infrastructures are the direct result of people not considering the hidden health costs in everything from real estate zoning to that cheap healthy produce that seems to be so available.

Lisa S

1/5/2010 2:54:39 AM #

OK - at this point the commentary is spiralling a bit, and I want to finish this off and move on.

Lisa: for sure there are a lot of people that can't afford to eat salads and carrots, and perhaps I should have put that caveat on the post too. But if I had illustrated every exception and caveat and asterisk, the post would have been 300 pages long.  And the point would have been totally lost.  Many people can afford to have a veggie roll up on a whole wheat tortilla and just choose to have the deep fried calzone instead.  Those are the people I was speaking to, and about.

And OK, if your neighbourhood is so unsafe you can't run, that is seriously very sad.  If my neighborhood was so dangerous I couldn't go out for a run in the morning, I probably wouldn't give a hoot about my fitness.  But on the off chance I was, I might buy a skipping rope.

Kristin

1/5/2010 4:37:40 AM #

I read some of the comments, but then there were so many I couldn't keep reading, but I just want to say a quick THANK YOU!  The reason being, both you and Sundry are so motivating.  When I was pregnant with my third baby last year I gained almost 60 lbs and kept reading all about both of your love/hate relationships with Jillian and her 30 day shred.  I vowed to buy it after the baby came and I did.  I LOVE IT!  I lost all of my baby weight, and more, with the help of Weight Watchers and Jillian has helped me to add some muscle and tone up.  I worked with her all summer long and loved it.  Then, this past September, I somehow fell out of my groove and haven't been working out.  I've luckily kept the weight off through my good eating-habits (everything in moderation) but am noticing the arms aren't as toned as they were.  I only get about 5 hours of sleep a night because I work from home after my kids go to sleep and used to work out at night, but have not been doing so for the past few months out of pure laziness.  Reading the first bunch of posts someone pointed out that ANYONE can get up 30 minutes early to work out.  So, since January 1 I have set the alarm for 30 minutes earlier than I needed to get up and have either worked out with Jillian (boy did I get out of shape fast!  The burn is killing me!) or used my elliptical while watching True Blood Season 1---that makes 45 minutes on the elliptical fly by!  I feel great and accomplished.  I am starting my day by taking care of myself and that is making me more productive throughout the day.  

I know that my kids are going to benefit from a healthier more fit mom and I feel more confident when I am healthy.  I am not trying to lose any pounds, just get stronger and leaner.  And...Kristin & Sundry, you are both great role-models for this.  Sorry for the major ramble, but Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!

JAB

1/5/2010 4:51:54 AM #

Actually, I ate like a pig until I was 30, and remained 5' 8" and 120 pounds with NO exercise other than walking around.  We're talking whole pints of Ben & Jerry's Phish Food in one sitting, several times a week.  Cheese galore, multiple times a day.  Yummy, yummy burgers, hot dogs, sausages, without a second thought.  

And I felt great.  Yes, it was easy for me.  I really didn't want to spend and hour a day working out -- I had many other passions to pursue.  I'm so glad I spent my hour each day learning to play guitar, or practicing my Spanish, or tickling my kid.  There are a thousand things that are more important to me than having flat abs.

At 30ish, my metabolism changed, but I'm okay with weighing 20 pounds more than I did in my 20's.  I still feel great.  It doesn't keep me up at night that I don't look like a model in a bikini any more.  I wouldn't dream of turning out the lights, or hiding my body in any way during the day.  It's still a healthy body -- low cholesterol, good heart rate, no diseases -- and I'm thankful.  No more thought required.

So, A) clearly other people's bodies have different responses to stuffing their faces than mine did/does.  This is not bullshit.  Read a few scientific papers on the subject.  And B) just enjoy your health while you're young, and be proud of who you are, no matter what your shape.  Our culture has a fucked up value system re: body image.  Ignore it (you CAN) and try to worry a little less about how you look from all angles.  That's what's truly sad.

Svendlor

1/5/2010 4:56:41 AM #

Very interesting discussion, and many valid viewpoints. Thanks for a thought-provoking and civil discussion. At my end, I have some genes going against me, but I'm coming out of a period where I let many other things come before fitness, and my body shows it. I own those decisions and the results, and now I need to make some changes.

On a completely unrelated note, how does one pronounce "aqufit"? It bugs me to no end to not know how to "say" it in my head.

Molly

1/5/2010 9:26:20 AM #

"But if I had illustrated every exception and caveat and asterisk, the post would have been 300 pages long"

Exactly the point: it's more complicated than your post would indicate.

Leigh

1/5/2010 3:59:56 PM #

Nice.  If you don't have your health, what do you have?
Cheers.

Ken Brand

1/5/2010 6:22:03 PM #

As someone who is overweight you would think that I would fall into the excuse-creators, but I'm not.  I agree with you.  Everyone has their challeneges to overcome and their reasons, but weight comes down to calories in versus calories out and everyone has the power to change their weight, they just have to choose.  I will never look good at a size 2, my bone structure would not allow it.  But my current weight is my fault, and I found that when I acknowledged that, I owned it, I finally felt the control to change it.  And I have.  I made some serious losses and I will continue.  But when I created excuses I went nowhere.

Great post.

Karen

1/5/2010 6:31:45 PM #

So the joke I often hear from my friends is I must have a hollow leg, or where does allt he fast food go. I used to work in a doctor's office and a physician assistant, so bewildered at how many times I walk into the office with a McDonald's bag that she wanted to do blood tests on me and scans. Now, I know with the amount of calories I take (at my new job now I start every morning with Burger King because I like their crossiant sandwiches and it conveniently can come with coffee) I really should be about 300 lbs but the fact remains I'm 115. In high school I didn't break a 100. In college my base was 104. Now in the real life as a 26 year old young professional, I'm around 115-120.

The only way I can make sense of my fortune is 1. I'm always on the go so maybe the stress and caffeine keeps my metabolism high, and secondly the genes.

Momma's metabolism didn't slow down til recently and even then she's small. She just has a pot belly that I sometimes shake lovingly.

Again, it's just looks though. The few times I've worked out with friends I'm often the smallest but always! ALWAYS the weakest link. I get winded everyday taking the stairs up my apartment.

Anyway. Thank you for writing the post. I feel like I should start working out........and the crossiant sandwich digesting in my belly feels like an albatross now.

linda

1/5/2010 9:29:23 PM #

I don't recall how I got to this post, but I'm glad I did...  I read about 3/4 of the comments Swistle's blog, and only a few of these.  But right off the bat, I want to say thank you.  I am overweight and it took me 38 years to get where I am.  I know it's not going to come off in 38 days.  I did this to myself - yeah, genetics has something to with the way I look, and perhaps my environment didn't help either (I grew up in a "you took it you eat it / clean your plate" house).  But once I left home, no one held a gun to my head and said finish that basket of fries w/a couple of beers.

Would I love to weight the 135 pounds that the BMI tells me I should - of course.  Will I diet & exercise myself to that weight - no.  Not because I can't do it - I can.  But because I don't think/feel its the healthiest weight for me.  I've made the changes I need to make and they're changes that I'm going to need to keep up with for the rest of my life, and I've decided I'm okay with it.  Will I slip occasionally and have that 2nd or 3rd piece of pizza - yup.  But it's nothing that won't come off w/out exercising the next day.

Jen

1/5/2010 9:48:16 PM #

You nailed it Kristen. Good job and THANKS!

I have slipped back into my old habits and gotten away from my regular running--and my world is becoming unhealthy and uncomfortable.

Holly @ Marathon Bird

1/5/2010 10:54:10 PM #

I agree 100%.  My highest weight was 287 lb.  I'm currently 222 by diet and exercise.

I have yet to meet an obese person, including myself, who does not overeat.  They may not admit it or even know it, but they do.  I think a lot of people are truly unaware of what a healthy portion is.

When you overeat, you are truly blind to it.  It's called denial.

I think too many people have the attitude that they want to lose weight without "giving anything up".  Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.  Losing weight is all about restricting your eating and pushing yourself to exercise.  It is very hard and it takes a long time.  If you aren't ready to do it, you just aren't.  And you won't be ready until you realize that fat IS a choice.

You know I got to almost 300 pounds, yet I still had friends telling me I "wasn't fat"??? This baffles me.  We're all too concerned with babying people and not hurting their feelings.  Sometimes the truth hurts.  I'd rather have known the truth.  Now I'll never be able to believe anyone who tells me I'm "not fat" no matter how thin I get.

Kate

1/6/2010 12:48:58 AM #

Kristin - Gwen Bell mentioned to me one day that the internet doesn't allow for empathy.  I keep coming back to her comment whenever I am challenged for being insensitive because of something I've written on a blog.  I think you intentions are well placed.

As to the subject matter I simply view it as intake=output=stable weight.  Intake<output=weight loss.  Intake>output=weight gain.  

We all are in control of our own destiny.

Mike

1/6/2010 3:46:27 AM #

Man. I read Swistle's post (and lord help me, all the comments) and I read yours (but sadly not all the comments yet). Can I agree with both of you? Can I agree with all of you!? Minus all the rudness because, let's be frank, there's no room for that. I agree that it is possible to be overweight and happy, skinny and happy, fat and miserable, and skinny and miserable. It's also possible to be fit or un-fit at any weight. Can we all just agree with that? Genetics plays a part, but not the whole. Same with exercise, food intake, etc.

Part of what is so frustrating, both for fat and skinny people, is that there are multiple industries, big ones, along with society in general, telling us what works, but the same thing does not work for everyone. It just doesn't and to presume that it does is silly. Do I believe that SOMETHING (by something, I mean, a way to be fit and healthy, not necessarily skinny) will work for everyone? Yes. Do I believe that we all should want to be healthy and find the something that works for you? YES. Do I also believe you have the right to do whatever the hell you want with your own body, health or not, fat or not? Abso-EFFING-lutely.

This is a really complicated issue for me, which is why I'm going to leave out my personal "journey" here -- as I said, my story is no one else's and frankly I don't like hearing anyone else's issues; I have enough of my own, thanks. But thanks for your post. I'd planned on writing something similar for a milestone anniversary of mine on the 15th, and I probably still will, but this changes how I'm going to write it. I'd love it if you came over next Friday and checked it out.

Rachel

1/6/2010 8:51:40 AM #

Hey Molly, thanks for the comment...we'd be interested in hearing more about your journey when and if you ever feel like sharing.

Aqufit is pronounced accu-fit, like accurate.  It has everything to do with an unavailable domain name and nothing to do with water. Smile

Corey Auger

1/6/2010 9:09:48 AM #

Thank you for the phrase "I'd rather have someone insert little balls of hamster poop in my ears than do another goddamned assisted pull up."

I can tell we're going to be friends! Even if only in my mind. When I'm doing an assisted pull up and envisioning hamsters.

Kelly Parkinson

1/6/2010 10:01:25 PM #

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1/6/2010 11:42:40 PM #

There are countless people on the internet that can show that anybody with determination and motivation can be the size they desire. People who are overweight, obese, or just a few lbs over a target, can do it. It takes the will do to it and the knowledge of doing it to get it done. One of the best examples I know is http://heathereatsalmondbutter.com/   ---HEAB. You can't exercise alone, you have to eat correctly. It isn't necessarily eating 'diet' stuff, it's eating real food.

I lost all of my college weight about 7 years ago, kept it off for a couple of years and then started a new job, let the running slide and started eating not so great. And, well, the college weight is back. It was a mental thing for me for awhile, but I'm finally getting back to it. Life gets in the way, we just have to acknowledge it and move on.

misti

1/7/2010 12:52:32 AM #

I've maintained a (non-surgical) weight loss of 100 pounds healthily for six plus years now making me virtually a freak of nature when you consider the dismal dieting statistics.  I am physically active and a health-conscious vegetarian and yet despite my best efforts I still have to be vigilant lest the weight return quite easily.  So, I call bullshit on your argument that it's all about willpower and choice with genetics a relative non-factor.

I'd like to read what you have to say about this study in which researchers found it virtually impossible to keep a thin person fat and vice versa.

www.nytimes.com/.../08iht-snfat.5614611.html?_r=2

Rachel

1/7/2010 1:04:41 AM #

I think there is a lot of truth in your post, but I have to disagree.  The problem here, as it is in everything, is that non-scientific opinions are based on narrow personal experience, and can never encompass the life experiences of everyone else.  So here's my contradictory personal experience: I eat very well and I work out, and I'm still and always will be chubby.  It's just the way I'm built, and just the way my body's happy; it's my set point to be 20 pounds heavier than my similarly sized friends, and there's nothing I can do about that.  No doubt this will make you doubt my healthy habits, but all I can say to that is: name the 10-mile running trail, and I will beat you to the end of it!

Kit

1/7/2010 1:38:25 AM #

You claim that anyone can do this? No matter how busy? Now I'm not a hefty girl, although recently I have had a noticeable weight gain out of nowhere, my diet (which isn't outstanding but is healthier than the vast majority of
America's) if anything had improved and my exercise habits stayed the same and improved some days. I'm actually looking into it being a slight medical thing that I am about to get resolved if that's the case. It may also be stress-induced, forcing myself to keep on a schedule of working out would probably stress me out MORE. I'm a single parent to a 4 year old. I work full-time on 3rd shift. I go to school full-time, last semester I stupidly took on more than I really could and was taking 17 credit hours. That hour a day of exercise could easily mean cutting into the 3-4 hours of sleep I get. There were often 1-2 days per week where I got an hour or so of sleep. My "exercise" was walking to class and playing with my son. I'm not asking for pity or anything, these are my choices. Fortunately this semester I am cutting back on the course load to 12. I'm rather curious what you would recommend for someone like me without taking something out.

Kim

1/7/2010 2:16:47 AM #

I'm too poor to eat less.

The most idiotic sentiment of all time.

tombrokaw

1/7/2010 1:40:33 PM #

Thank you everyone for your mostly thoughtful and provocative comments.  I think many of us learned a lot and that pretty much everything has been said. I'm closing comments here but as always, if you have a burning need to express yourself to Kristin or I, emails are always welcome.

Corey Auger

1/13/2010 7:13:49 AM #

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1/25/2010 12:02:58 PM #

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Kristin D.

I'm Mom to a four-year old goggle enthusiast, girlfriend to a fitness-obsessed software geek, and reluctant lover of Kozy Shack rice pudding.  I hate to run, but I do it with a vengeance because it feels so good when it's done and I curse Jillian Michaels under my breath but I credit her with visible shoulder muscles for the first time in my life.  I'm replacing Doritos with carrots and hummous, and I finally understand that my muffin top was related to my inhalation of too many muffins.  In this blog I'll talk about my fledlgling journey: from suburban fatskinny to strong and fit via yoga, adventure sports, running, the gym and boot camp.  I'm stoked to have you along for the ride.

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